From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 144f00eb for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2018 01:33:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id AE574A2060; Mon, 3 Dec 2018 11:33:07 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 711EBA1CEB; Mon, 3 Dec 2018 11:32:56 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 91F19A1CEB; Mon, 3 Dec 2018 11:32:50 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vk1-f181.google.com (mail-vk1-f181.google.com [209.85.221.181]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E86BD94A37 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2018 11:32:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vk1-f181.google.com with SMTP id d201so2537625vka.0 for ; Sun, 02 Dec 2018 17:32:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=XfZcil4fL6f9dYsJMsOBTUXRVFYDOwsusa9D2c/bJp0=; b=k6nVrfmjMdg50Mqs6mnX6eVqiErVkv02uGcTTWEurqSVpXxtUmUDTEBClXapzUCKsk sRo1lMvWjjUsVOmmg1d77TodO9JwJOF2qlSVxaHJPlf86c0ySQqb+zr1vMzDzJDgyOU/ hcKFBImwSzOq4hy84sV2w3IZW0SeZ65uttwxQyhXRCZNhc0lA9EMR6vi+3OJ0yoEaLq8 zARAJl0PdK3FBrmsqCW9NDMlsgbqckFC3u2Rz8FHOFauad5OlsvD5kuvk4uOQYieK5/1 PbLt8FMui7UN38NCaw5B1emI5JPnEVvvd7JzCgXZsVcX6/Oze8g2GEgCW3fuyx0F2o1o /aKQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XfZcil4fL6f9dYsJMsOBTUXRVFYDOwsusa9D2c/bJp0=; b=tsaT6o/PcU6q7ztURBfEsSY6dANyEyv+JxFYygDgwFbL510UeRu8GvYO3aDr3ErPnD ngiMMM7X1UNDkLMv8Lcr0A7RGOvyWSBkaXXqYjnEW6FIDi1ywoFgWoUZZD6Tes7cOm+M QqqpZ5XIp5L4kvNI9N0NRq7YwNmYjq9ZTwAVHX+pFWI8iqWCfkJWhFo60Tegu9dSOz9F cztiwp8lXCbEcN0wjrwXj7wQRC9YXYvWM+f/9LriatWfgRdNhXpZTZOAdn2z0KPKQ+EX bRKTp426Sg/kSaNe2xfWrzwdp5mAvvUgGW9mxCdX7Ram8pGouL0gX3jhiZ9TUkv7UYQv +gOA== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWb8lgJpYi26lCxgQLb/H+qZoCpyurXqexr+IzvevjrFqWV5VK51 GeeMHaiX7c9fOePudoes13df1O8aN4rJ4gs5Mgw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/X4Qli/r4VWrzWXLIK68cUY633PmsujMbmdYINN1XXAdRkfWg92JbMFc5AfBzXJu/pJKQHJV9ya7wxU4bempug= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:a597:: with SMTP id o145mr6257635vke.67.1543800763924; Sun, 02 Dec 2018 17:32:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7942e6cc-177f-7155-f80f-80732da69d51@telegraphics.com.au> In-Reply-To: <7942e6cc-177f-7155-f80f-80732da69d51@telegraphics.com.au> From: Rob Pike Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 12:32:32 +1100 Message-ID: To: toby@telegraphics.com.au Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000234743057c14201d" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Happy birthday, John Backus! X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: tuhs@tuhs.org Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000234743057c14201d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Fortran was a marvel. Don't judge it by today's ideas about language design. -rob On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 9:34 AM Toby Thain wrote: > On 2018-12-02 5:17 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote: > > As every computer programmer should know, John Backus was emitted in > > 1924; he gave us the BNF syntax (he is the "B"), but he also gave us > > that FORTRAN obscenity... Yeah, it was a nice language at the time; the > > engineers loved it, but tthe computer scientists hated it (have you ever > > tried to debug a FORTRAN program that somebody else wrote?). > > He made amends by being early to recognise that problem, and propose > solutions, in his 1977 ACM Turing Award lecture (still perfectly > relevant today): > > https://www.thocp.net/biographies/papers/backus_turingaward_lecture.pdf > > --Toby > > > > > > > Trivia: there is no way that FORTRAN can be described in any syntax; it > > is completely ad-hoc. > > > > -- Dave > > > > --000000000000234743057c14201d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fortran was a marvel. Don't judge it by today's id= eas about language design.

-rob


On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 9:= 34 AM Toby Thain <toby@teleg= raphics.com.au> wrote:
On 20= 18-12-02 5:17 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> As every computer programmer should know, John Backus was emitted in > 1924; he gave us the BNF syntax (he is the "B"), but he also= gave us
> that FORTRAN obscenity...=C2=A0 Yeah, it was a nice language at the ti= me; the
> engineers loved it, but tthe computer scientists hated it (have you ev= er
> tried to debug a FORTRAN program that somebody else wrote?).

He made amends by being early to recognise that problem, and propose
solutions, in his 1977 ACM Turing Award lecture (still perfectly
relevant today):

https://www.thocp.net/biograp= hies/papers/backus_turingaward_lecture.pdf

--Toby



>
> Trivia: there is no way that FORTRAN can be described in any syntax; i= t
> is completely ad-hoc.
>
> -- Dave
>

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