From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 9341 invoked from network); 19 Mar 2023 20:28:02 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 19 Mar 2023 20:28:02 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1D4F41212; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 06:27:55 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-xe35.google.com (mail-vs1-xe35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e35]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1F5F41211 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 06:27:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-xe35.google.com with SMTP id k11so8829479vsq.13 for ; Sun, 19 Mar 2023 13:27:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1679257665; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=unbaOvZnNUy3gtza/Esh2JdZz2echIKbFnrow0SkRYQ=; b=Do37UzkkHy/6A+7a4Qa2ks82587rki5mHsulTeeuvFIN7JkrQkYS08ruADAtC3HQBe ufE1Irax9ouye3t1Z43P6lHbLRqFefuM/EL9H6kb9eD8pOmDET9cKJzv17K+lQh58xvc EJwvyGIqP/FZXwnwqByVuyjTs6Qg5MudK4PKvE5RewDc2kB2ernlk8GhWXHNsZbhjIC6 VgJ51SXFQRxTges7E7WFFu0sP74lRMJGDMx9eKcej4IaAwMSkyY2xuAipT39WplxIO79 /cZeW2XqS4dj0j/xVHK7hsyigoch5B1wSjg2D8YinMkRj2AJoLm9pVKWobhOys6+7Duk ybBg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1679257665; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=unbaOvZnNUy3gtza/Esh2JdZz2echIKbFnrow0SkRYQ=; b=tuT9i6mEbbHXuZdCuGJb1MKJlQ3FqD4otfJmNg882VuFIBjX8AwJtwXIYsZy+XjSjK kKstim5YWc9BkBSP7Wgrip1jhPqxJ0Zr5QDE5jDH+ivH655bkedIORA1UTImkxFIZPpQ BkUrTjF9FkYt3TerKVTxyQctoJUzmymKBXVGFpA6iDkkn8NREOufAiG/aEySSs6ueHnx SjM7aeXZjvx9j5WHaj1rDFtLobiHjvWJJu/Zcb6yWfBiueuIdmKrKIrF/ebsZJcdHJiZ mJhN6IpURzmBof2JNr4QOvMld7fMqvyk+QFhCNRCXZu5dm+kPHFJcIlTNH8qe2KCk98t F1jQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKXJtyukAjbpHOX0FiScy4klM7Rt9keYu8uRHjUN3aUczx6fP4+E mlnxUwQxZZpUMKEnN8LgxLEfFnhRIEvWtqJXuAfi3lVwYvs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set8mdLh0YKI3P00GAEXTkD8uTS7SKv5UHzT+qaecg1EvvIHSbP2/fi9ObA93/tPEtmHbQbKVtI3zZls+Hsw+CMQ= X-Received: by 2002:a67:d289:0:b0:425:e8fe:f59b with SMTP id z9-20020a67d289000000b00425e8fef59bmr2778675vsi.6.1679257665352; Sun, 19 Mar 2023 13:27:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230319134701.3A262220F7@orac.inputplus.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20230319134701.3A262220F7@orac.inputplus.co.uk> From: Rob Pike Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2023 07:27:34 +1100 Message-ID: To: Ralph Corderoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a138c505f746a4fb" Message-ID-Hash: 4CIQUL4LMERBXU76GRUDZRM6KNK7CKIJ X-Message-ID-Hash: 4CIQUL4LMERBXU76GRUDZRM6KNK7CKIJ X-MailFrom: robpike@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Bell Foreign-Language UNIX Efforts List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000a138c505f746a4fb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" As my mail quoted in https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/utf-8-history.txt says, Ken worked out a new packing that avoided all the problems with the existing ones. He didn't alter Prosser's encoding. UTF-8, as it was later called, was not based on anything but it was deeply informed by a couple of years of work coming to grips with the problem of programming with multibyte characters. What Prosser did do, and what we - all of us - are very grateful for, is start the conversation about replacing UTF with something practical. (Speaking of design by committee, the multibyte stuff in C89 was atrocious, and I heard was done in committee to get someone, perhaps the Japanese, to sign off.) Regarding windows, Nathan Myrhvold visited Bell Labs around this time, and we tried to talk to him about this, but he wasn't interested, claiming they had it all worked out. We later learned what he meant, and lamented. Not the only time someone wasn't open to hear an idea that might be worth hearing, but an educational one. It's important historically to understand how all the forces came together that day. The world was ready for a solution to international text, the proposed character set was acceptable to most but the ASCII compatibility issues were unbearable, the proposed solution to that was noxious, various committees were starting to solve the problem in committee, leading to technical briefs of varying quality, none right, and somehow a phone call was made one afternoon to a couple of people who had been thinking and working these issues for ages, one of whom was a genius. And it all worked out, which is truly unusual. -rob --000000000000a138c505f746a4fb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As my mail quoted in https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/utf-8-= history.txt=C2=A0says, Ken worked out a new packing that avoided all th= e problems with the existing ones. He didn't alter Prosser's encodi= ng. UTF-8, as it was later called, was not based on anything but it was dee= ply informed by a couple of years of work coming to grips with the problem = of programming with multibyte characters. What Prosser did do, and what we = - all of us - are very grateful for, is start the conversation about replac= ing UTF with something practical.

(Speaking of design by committee, the = multibyte stuff in C89 was atrocious, and I heard was done in committee to = get someone, perhaps the Japanese, to sign off.)

Regarding windows, Nathan= Myrhvold visited Bell Labs around this time, and we tried to talk to him a= bout this, but he wasn't interested, claiming they had it all worked ou= t. We later learned what he meant, and lamented. Not the only time someone = wasn't open to hear an idea that might be worth hearing, but an educati= onal one.

It's important historically to understand how all the forces= came together that day. The world was ready for a solution to internationa= l text, the proposed character set was acceptable to most but the ASCII com= patibility issues were unbearable, the proposed solution to that was noxiou= s, various committees were starting to solve the problem in committee, lead= ing to technical briefs of varying quality, none right, and somehow a phone= call was made one afternoon to a couple of people who had been thinking an= d working these issues for ages, one of whom was a genius. And it all worke= d out, which is truly unusual.

-rob


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