From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 29897 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2022 20:44:08 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 26 Nov 2022 20:44:08 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60CA0416F9; Sun, 27 Nov 2022 06:43:55 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f48.google.com (mail-vs1-f48.google.com [209.85.217.48]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCBCD4025D for ; Sun, 27 Nov 2022 06:43:50 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f48.google.com with SMTP id v128so7141993vsb.13 for ; Sat, 26 Nov 2022 12:43:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=qmaDvGRg8aAwOT/DEfA0W72R082e4Ogq1TzucrbWsrc=; b=H5r5/h0TafSRLkZGBrd6lEJYJ9xztGceFJ5zcw+cbYej3ZdM1DfZAjZ/63vo7CizrF OPCVL6iMKqbRFtidp4Aw4mAygAkVbqeEj5EQ2IY21B5MhIeM5k0QeRYxg7vG79F5CnVL 7gAc3Ob6jk7xSKsrMcCgU09YCxQB5RK5Geqt7aAZ8xpZugkAx6GNLWdMgwGvacgxNXuY R2wrKMQlwaCOOMQ4j2qmKzSd/6H0VeYnkyGhcUzsc3GqCdwSdAy2vq/we6w9WRG9tx33 q63DMWh7YF2s9U2g3ZChu9DhoER7eH4f4lHbCa2kXjCQrnwjq1kzX9czQ9TKD2ytDGwz wIbA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=qmaDvGRg8aAwOT/DEfA0W72R082e4Ogq1TzucrbWsrc=; b=FDBgCS9xWH16c/uAca08fMCNZBSmDz+WtvMej3mobty3kFftGOaxtSX4EKmsR/lWJd esfTyFm37iWG1pxHHqmlkzVpL9GICRabSif6MueYw1ZJCwTwzN9De3RA1oCdffGYrmku ZhrZl3ngyougB/MTenHSidZ1h7VgtXnOvaFihjLa6SoUPiurEiRbAbchVPaPxB5vwWpD uDqphb0DBwHEogi3FReSy1bzqHmybhvTCxrywR2Pjz7+abxBvlrTQJ1tpWbva0/OD1B+ e3O+TvwhCernQ/1whtcpVLtiXbIArPImxdKYiJQda7J3xLbWsq2TXSc/WxLlM6yA14/V RkHg== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pm2K3oP+5qOATbpdWyA8Se2vQ6JvynPSp2H1eIZtZ2vpm7BaOrY jgnba7UnoYIZIJ60ZoAhGGE6EI+LFERexJ8OvBOQy9xh X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf5xSMl/eAEQKuSR4NZ2e/fPs2AXFYV434dpH/A+a/CotYMz9ioqN15OPQVMgRwNn4T202d82KS9l6c8xGIfs6w= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:1524:b0:3b0:5dd0:95a with SMTP id f36-20020a056102152400b003b05dd0095amr13621688vsv.59.1669495369588; Sat, 26 Nov 2022 12:42:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8f278bf8-de57-4e77-a3b8-d007d7c3a446@app.fastmail.com> <20221126191827.GV18011@mcvoy.com> <764dda08-f358-4c74-8056-ef8fc80bcaac@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <764dda08-f358-4c74-8056-ef8fc80bcaac@app.fastmail.com> From: Rob Pike Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2022 07:42:38 +1100 Message-ID: To: Seth Morabito Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000075633005ee65aec0" Message-ID-Hash: DSOG4TJ4LQPHDWEUA66GV4DXD7PXV57R X-Message-ID-Hash: DSOG4TJ4LQPHDWEUA66GV4DXD7PXV57R X-MailFrom: robpike@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Reaction to the 3B2 at Bell Labs List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000075633005ee65aec0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" It was not popular with CS Research, and we were not popular with them. We were using VAXes, which the 3B series were attempting to compete against. The VAX was not exactly graceful, architecturally, but the 3B series was clumsier and less cost-effective. We weren't interested, despite frequently applied pressure. And, although a different topic, there was the way the commercialization of the Blit forced the 68000 to be replaced by the BELLMAC-32 by essentially the same people, or at least the same boss (Scanlon), which was a poor decision on every dimension. The idea was to get BELLMACs out there to drive up production, but the chip was far less suitable, and each one cost about what a full Blit with a 68000 instead would have. A loss leader, bad financially and bad technically. On the other hand, as I resullt of I did port an OS and other software to the BELLMAC-32 as a result of this work, and learned how badly it did things like memory management and the interrupt vector setup, and how buggy it was. So there were not many warm feelings between 1127 and the computer division. -rob On Sun, Nov 27, 2022 at 7:05 AM Seth Morabito wrote: > On Sat, Nov 26, 2022, at 11:18 AM, Larry McVoy wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 26, 2022 at 10:46:33AM -0800, Seth Morabito wrote: > >> Can anyone recall what the general mood was regarding the 3B2 (and the > 7300 and the 6300, I suppose!) > > > > If the 7300 was the 3B1, M68K, I had one of those and a good friend also > > had one. It was a huge step up from a CP/M machine which was my > > previous machine. I liked it a lot. > > > > But I wasn't at Bell Labs so perhaps this isn't the info you want. I got > > the sense that the 3B2 was not very popular anywhere. > > It was definitely a weird beast. I'm only "fond" of it in the loosest > possible sense because I spent so much time trying to understand its > internals. It was the perfect combination of too slow, too low specs, and > too expensive! > > I think one of my slides will simply say "IT WAS BAD AT BEING A COMPUTER" > > -Seth > -- > Seth Morabito > Poulsbo, WA > web@loomcom.com > --00000000000075633005ee65aec0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It was not popular with CS Research, and we were not popular with= them. We were using VAXes, which the 3B series were attempting to compete = against. The VAX was not exactly graceful, architecturally, but the 3B seri= es was clumsier and less cost-effective. We weren't interested, despite= frequently applied pressure.

And, although a different topic, there was t= he way the commercialization of the Blit forced the 68000 to be replaced by= the BELLMAC-32 by essentially the same people, or at least the same boss (= Scanlon), which was a poor decision on every dimension. The idea was to get= BELLMACs out there to drive up production, but the chip was far less suita= ble, and each one cost about what a full Blit with a 68000 instead would ha= ve. A loss leader, bad financially and bad technically.

On the other hand= , as I resullt of I did port an OS and other software to the BELLMAC-32 as = a result of this work, and learned how badly it did things like memory mana= gement and the interrupt vector setup, and how buggy it was.

So there were= not many warm feelings between 1127 and the computer division.

-rob
=


On Sun, Nov 27, 2022 at 7:05 AM Seth Morabito <web@loomcom.com> wrote:
On Sat, Nov 26, 2022, at 11:18 AM, Larry McVoy = wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 26, 2022 at 10:46:33AM -0800, Seth Morabito wrote:
>> Can anyone recall what the general mood was regarding the 3B2 (and= the 7300 and the 6300, I suppose!)
>
> If the 7300 was the 3B1, M68K, I had one of those and a good friend al= so
> had one.=C2=A0 It was a huge step up from a CP/M machine which was my =
> previous machine.=C2=A0 I liked it a lot.
>
> But I wasn't at Bell Labs so perhaps this isn't the info you w= ant.=C2=A0 I got
> the sense that the 3B2 was not very popular anywhere.

It was definitely a weird beast. I'm only "fond" of it in the= loosest possible sense because I spent so much time trying to understand i= ts internals. It was the perfect combination of too slow, too low specs, an= d too expensive!

I think one of my slides will simply say "IT WAS BAD AT BEING A COMPUT= ER"

-Seth
--
=C2=A0 Seth Morabito
=C2=A0 Poulsbo, WA
=C2=A0 web@loomcom.com=
--00000000000075633005ee65aec0--