From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 24588 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2022 21:42:50 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 11 Oct 2022 21:42:50 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E87740D1F; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 07:42:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f51.google.com (mail-vs1-f51.google.com [209.85.217.51]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF85A409C6 for ; Wed, 12 Oct 2022 07:42:23 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f51.google.com with SMTP id 63so15716930vse.2 for ; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 14:42:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=lrB0M84T0sZSUFQN7t0yDc7SIkPMaU8S3Aj3WMj7vHs=; b=EHaHTGnbSfNAT6XJoajyeMXyCa+X70aG6ZovrIgohFOK66wEgYh/CAGy3hKeo4VPht ueKCM9L2sC3HzX1GAMaHPdnTXXvt5Qwfey9zIofXwURd7HSY4+UlJreRYyAumgV8kSG/ 790k/wtb4ssN53BPp21eBV2czGnfDF//uqcEx3PUqFmpSQ6aOpzh3ruRf7B2ri8XgM/T d2UydjvdcRAhj/dP50OxdRCWdZEgQncb7XAbUFOSvVRzairsNUy+GWoKJPvl2h/EMruP xKNoYVUWZXB1PDn4qjDtLBTz/2Ep6SdrtUAcHcGXGRyexCAfYBX3urC6k51IvSM5T4AE 5B/Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=lrB0M84T0sZSUFQN7t0yDc7SIkPMaU8S3Aj3WMj7vHs=; b=pyQxT297mEKO6w6MJq6wp5OnChAfcCo+5a4fKqiswbSID8VV0DBZuJPgykYT5CiEt+ FUsMcWtmd8MpUzk5vBJx9y/UD9vC/RMR0Vanc5uxQcqofg7cj2DFhzhRMLJT2jwBaE2g 9kmNloUIPsw3raAeNln2Mk8aTt0VnOy4HI6WyreFANk9ubJkgqbPmYDoqggjKZBDbd+p xx51SpoBEBAK3wLj6Q+D/zBJEgpSeDQq9V8I0+X+EHCrMgrXRZ4KBRDtxnm+pSnW7X96 H0d5BgoUTl5Xzo2XDfdOOY/MlXz/MuQLlmfHBTle4JA1o/kjV+Id+kws/jTkOgllptYn qJMw== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf3LRWlU7IDVewMmIRFrWp+dm+8oAbaPPt88+FC612mlsFqVc97Z 7o3Bpi7HLx6RIXOI00C8P2VurQJCGvfe1KVs1Qg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM5kSe8QRDldg+e61hr6jYvYmdWXMRiKXVKRpDqiKZ0x2V9A6b1cVJ6VrapAJcMHyDVjIbMPEAD42BIjQgy5CjE= X-Received: by 2002:a67:d78f:0:b0:3a7:60cc:94f2 with SMTP id q15-20020a67d78f000000b003a760cc94f2mr2374880vsj.19.1665524482819; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 14:41:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <992562BA-E21F-4542-A50B-6CFE8F7ACE86@planet.nl> <20221011134842.GA11780@mcvoy.com> <20221011195447.GI11780@mcvoy.com> <8583490b-c7cc-4633-b506-2f16335fd3e2@home.arpa> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Pike Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2022 08:41:11 +1100 Message-ID: To: Dan Cross Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000029cb1605eac9235f" Message-ID-Hash: J4SVRQDJPKDHLD3QDX77XMEXNABOOO7L X-Message-ID-Hash: J4SVRQDJPKDHLD3QDX77XMEXNABOOO7L X-MailFrom: robpike@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: =?UTF-8?Q?Michael_Kj=C3=B6rling?= , tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Re.: Princeton's "Unix: An Oral History": who was in the team in "The Attic"? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000029cb1605eac9235f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I told this anecdote in an internal talk at Google. You might have seen it then. -rob On Wed, Oct 12, 2022 at 8:08 AM Dan Cross wrote: > On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 4:09 PM Rob Pike wrote: > >> I think it is (used to be?) a common pattern. >> >> Tom Cargill took a year off from Bell Labs Research to work in >> development. He joined a group where every subsystem's code was printed = in >> a separate binder and stored on a shelf in each office. Tom discovered t= hat >> one of those subsystems was almost completely redundant, as most its >> services were implemented elsewhere. So he spent a few months making it >> completely redundant. He deleted 15,000 lines of code. When he was done,= he >> removed an entire binder from everybody's shelf. His coworkers loved it. >> >> During his performance review, he learned that management had a metric >> for productivity: lines of code. Tom had negative productivity. In fact, >> because he was so successful, his entire group had negative productivity= . >> He returned to Research with his tail between his legs. >> > > Was this vignette in, "The Practice of Programming"? I know I've read it > somewhere before, either there, or in the first edition of "Programming > Pearls." > > In the latter, Bentley makes a quip about incentives and lives of code. > Basically, if one incentivizes repetitive code, that's one what gets; "if > you pay by the line of code, how do you think an array with 500 elements > gets initialized?" > > - Dan C. > > On Wed, Oct 12, 2022 at 7:03 AM Michael Kj=C3=B6rling >> wrote: >> >>> On 11 Oct 2022 12:54 -0700, from lm@mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy): >>> > On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 03:43:19PM -0400, Marc Donner wrote: >>> >> So, come annual review time he gets the most negative possible score= . >>> >> Why? Because he produced -480K lines of code. >>> > >>> > Whoever wrote that review should have been fired. Absolutely no clue= . >>> >>> Isn't it relatively well established, though, that IBM culture at >>> least for a very long time put heavy emphasis on counting lines of >>> source code, and that more SLOC was considered to be better? >>> >>> I definitely recall it being mentioned in _Triumph of the nerds_ as a >>> major issue between IBM and Microsoft during development of OS/2. >>> >>> -- >>> Michael Kj=C3=B6rling >>> https://michael.kjorling.se >>> =E2=80=9CRemember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a= dog?=E2=80=9D >>> >>> --00000000000029cb1605eac9235f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I told this anecdote in an internal talk at Google. You might hav= e seen it then.

-rob

On Wed, Oct 12, 2022 at 8:08 AM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 4:09 PM Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
I think it = is (used to be?) a common pattern.

Tom Cargill = took a year off from Bell Labs Research to work in development. He joined a= group where every subsystem's code was printed in a separate binder an= d stored on a shelf in each office. Tom discovered that one of those subsys= tems was almost completely redundant, as most its services were implemented= elsewhere. So he spent a few months making it completely redundant. He del= eted 15,000 lines of code. When he was done, he removed an entire binder fr= om everybody's shelf. His coworkers loved it.

During his perform= ance review, he learned that management had a metric for productivity: line= s of code. Tom had negative productivity. In fact, because he was so succes= sful, his entire group had negative productivity. He returned to Research w= ith his tail between his legs.

<= div>Was this vignette=C2=A0in, "The Practice of Programming"? I k= now I've read it somewhere before, either there, or in the first editio= n of "Programming Pearls."

In the latter= , Bentley makes a quip about incentives and lives of code. Basically, if on= e incentivizes repetitive code, that's one what gets; "if you pay = by the line of code, how do you think an array with 500 elements gets initi= alized?"

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.=

On Wed, Oct 12, 2022 at 7:03 AM Michae= l Kj=C3=B6rling <e5655f30a07f@= ewoof.net> wr= ote:
On 11 Oct 2022 12:54 -0700, from lm@mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy):
> On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 03:43:19PM -0400, Marc Donner wrote:
>> So, come annual review time he gets the most negative possible sco= re.
>> Why?=C2=A0 Because he produced -480K lines of code.
>
> Whoever wrote that review should have been fired.=C2=A0 Absolutely no = clue.

Isn't it relatively well established, though, that IBM culture at
least for a very long time put heavy emphasis on counting lines of
source code, and that more SLOC was considered to be better?

I definitely recall it being mentioned in _Triumph of the nerds_ as a
major issue between IBM and Microsoft during development of OS/2.

--
Michael Kj=C3=B6rling
=C2=A0https://michael.kjorling.se
=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CRemember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were = a dog?=E2=80=9D

--00000000000029cb1605eac9235f--