From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 11457 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2023 08:32:56 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 3 Aug 2023 08:32:56 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28D7B410F6; Thu, 3 Aug 2023 18:32:49 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-x92f.google.com (mail-ua1-x92f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::92f]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7083410F1 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2023 18:32:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-x92f.google.com with SMTP id a1e0cc1a2514c-7996fe1c31bso246980241.3 for ; Thu, 03 Aug 2023 01:32:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1691051558; x=1691656358; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=iovN0swhl5x0FRRkOMs7Q19kDdPxwXAmtZMfT2o9F5w=; b=bRgiNFv353NU47IN5v4zQMR4bArqEpfqLd95RojSwoYJRlfVSRpcLEgRew4GmUytZ4 SO50M6vmsxJWQnEqfJnHmZU69sUckyNXyg4I6CTIvKwaxxsvg3Dq5xLmS49oXsxXbd2O 7/9qeE/Mmw+yse6i/CT0pgxZ4wMEJfWtQwMPT91yII57SMD+W5N3f5JWaIaB6HSf37UG LNRYW0TqnOMzZpnOlm89G66RU0NfaKRr69RPwLRexmWaQIDipCzB6yPUtCalGOaguYGU IdaWIKIM4MTKz7TNwXsGUEl/PbViokyIlq8hQkx3xNZI4F/8glC4Hvbu0//aHJAikKwE EnpQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1691051558; x=1691656358; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=iovN0swhl5x0FRRkOMs7Q19kDdPxwXAmtZMfT2o9F5w=; b=VV7qccRBUYe7k73c6Z6sje+hdHUWa2kGUIPZ/o130CnQ2ctujtblfYs/DwU1CZlyqi NE0W9f8vR8VUgQkA3kVL06yvcI1Y6wYKpb+qJNOnXdjc6GtJI0l1GLpZLgYXmF9ZT19L LY1zjVtk+M+frOs49izKNuUBXvCP/J98jXvaKSA7ylIiQYI1w4zv79PEqAwZ2FbfPKMJ 9/WOJsvbJJM4pUCQoh8LYcotmntRej0DdoQiODJGEvJ17c1Ypd6MYqJgEWdornFRqNtB uKyUCk46iAe2X3z+bYOVFTiVTXwrxLnH7gFHkThzWeHhrHRDq2GrVCaQ4Zvb/yZ/jXYw qYCA== X-Gm-Message-State: ABy/qLacXryhyY64uvy3X12Zu3Awstkt/nHMC7+75tB0HcD3fYaPIOlZ lVTfV495GrRUKl8b5crpb7AIl7ONie+hdXmuWV4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APBJJlHwNzzGnuI4zeLiFSpRbNwTGE7nvtdBMlacA4RB+8IFp+gvV+OoBTKcKAsak4W9FGQUf5TqqXQXgCVMotkzg1Y= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f619:0:b0:443:8eab:c664 with SMTP id k25-20020a67f619000000b004438eabc664mr6509940vso.13.1691051558380; Thu, 03 Aug 2023 01:32:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8246.1690761540@cesium.clock.org> <29602.1690887524@cesium.clock.org> <20230803005106.GA12652@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Pike Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2023 18:32:27 +1000 Message-ID: To: Bakul Shah Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006f280b0602009f9e" Message-ID-Hash: ZKSHRW42ZDDLZ5ZKPBVBGX53VSYEXRNW X-Message-ID-Hash: ZKSHRW42ZDDLZ5ZKPBVBGX53VSYEXRNW X-MailFrom: robpike@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: python List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000006f280b0602009f9e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I once inherited maintenance of a critical piece of infrastructure written in exquisitely well written, tested, and documented Python. I mean it, it was really really good. It crashed about once a week and I had to fix it over and over because in those exponentially vast combinations of paths through the code would arise yet another way to turn a string into a list, or something analogous. It was hell. Critical code needs static typing. -rob On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 1:56=E2=80=AFPM Bakul Shah wro= te: > python can certainly implement tail call optimization (TCO). Pretty much > any language can implement TCO but for some reason people think such > programs are harder to debug (and yet they don't similarly complain about > loops!). The beauty of Scheme was that it *mandated* tail recursion. > > > On Aug 2, 2023, at 8:24 PM, George Michaelson wrote: > > > > Tail recursion not lazy eval. > > > > I wish words meant what I meant "inside" when I think them, not > > "outside" what they mean when I write them. > > --0000000000006f280b0602009f9e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I once inherited maintenance of a critical piece of infrastructur= e written in exquisitely well written, tested, and documented Python. I mea= n it, it was really really good.

It crashed about once a week and I had to= fix it over and over because in those exponentially vast combinations of p= aths through the code would arise yet another way to turn a string into a l= ist, or something analogous. It was hell.

Critical code needs static typin= g.

-rob


On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 1:56=E2=80=AFPM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
python can certainly = implement tail call optimization (TCO). Pretty much any language can implem= ent TCO but for some reason people think such programs are harder to debug = (and yet they don't similarly complain about loops!). The beauty of Sch= eme was that it *mandated* tail recursion.

> On Aug 2, 2023, at 8:24 PM, George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org> wrote:
>
> Tail recursion not lazy eval.
>
> I wish words meant what I meant "inside" when I think them, = not
> "outside" what they mean when I write them.

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