From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 9072 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2021 22:24:19 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 17 Nov 2021 22:24:19 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id DC2E99C861; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 08:24:16 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC2719C2E5; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 08:22:04 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="K6hc+Pcg"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 69CC29C2E5; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 08:22:02 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pl1-f180.google.com (mail-pl1-f180.google.com [209.85.214.180]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 082969C29F for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 08:22:01 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pl1-f180.google.com with SMTP id y7so3497411plp.0 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:22:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2ShVR6FlzRjmKfwHbXE+A4I1b0+hGxKuEqNMLP5oeyA=; b=K6hc+Pcg+b6hOyebe4ekrK0vF6n54kSJtEKJlAbTCZJ65JfkJcs1mDbitQNBr71crk Nijvt07K7cMlYzmHLv1lJ2MHBzwr0e0bDJVcJQK3khuUOmRV+GjRtFX7giZ661kcvVJi rPyM7LTnJ0blxDV9zMda8V7meJYotC4XK7HeVKuYoLc+XMEF3VaKMQAWHV417ukcboxZ F/aT3mVPbq2KCTf9XKDGbMAHGc9SLEzeICTgvmx5t5c0DsAXF2zkqNCAglMOhdMaWF8a 5UzU7Lm3tdXtSic/LES8KLr1kyRxqzDvhYb6e4HJJyY0q20Iqa/+hmx6m2mZeHCClspc QmbQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2ShVR6FlzRjmKfwHbXE+A4I1b0+hGxKuEqNMLP5oeyA=; b=HTeZlC8+b5PZgyFkxYkxUg/g5npaVJ0eRufBIm3nvnXZ6fknPKTEWFuTfQm8X8i7B+ LD4gYLX5ypM18FBe5QOt0ojQtMWpY17PZOrR2J0X7d0pdE5p0p9Dd54v7LICugnTwmdG z/4wjiH83dLfQF4M5x+wMc3+Jafbaix7w7nnniFGdHHbr86EXWMUzIYpi/05So6eo4KA Q2L6eVNxh31Sqb1XAIQcUqOnnBZqyaYZ2NXAs9RsLEFlUbiiyjN0za0eiZCmonQQvBoE wia3zx8EmXU24btZUiR+YDHm9jDI2FfiHTNM5mGGXPmJj61ufGDXDbfpM0zjFwK+H+vW wP7A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530AauP+4Y9c2QLBVe5/RHcBIh2VtuPsO+PqE1CA9qLDmgFo4onb sJI/1E+7qf3Yqaylh8mZarng/8FmqZG+TJ1tKdo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxpna+uyaQeJ1gYqRnKS7O2fW+aDSnBD7ytyshwombV9CVdPIzVDqkHjQd3OhDhT0T4wc3eUa5VYS9CyZ3i6WA= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1c0f:: with SMTP id oc15mr4126519pjb.50.1637187720361; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:22:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202111161754.1AGHsGsN929905@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <50F3E958-F0A4-4895-B1BC-41A2644A074A@oclsc.org> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Pike Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 09:21:49 +1100 Message-ID: To: Dan Cross Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000080bc6a05d10378fc" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Book Recommendation [ reallly inscrutable languages ] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000080bc6a05d10378fc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Perl certainly had its detractors, but for a few years there it was the lingua franca of system administration. -rob On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 8:21 AM Dan Cross wrote: > On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 3:54 PM Warner Losh wrote: > >> On Wed, Nov 17, 2021, 1:48 PM Dan Stromberg wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 11:35 AM Norman Wilson wrote: >>> >>>> Wasn't Perl created to fill this void? >>>> >>>> Void? I thought Perl was created to fill a much-needed gap. >>>> >>> There was and is a need for something to sit between Shell and C. But >>> it needn't be filled by Perl. >>> >>> The chief problem with Perl, as I see it, is it's like 10 languages >>> smashed together. To write it, you only need to know one of the 10. But >>> to read it, you never know what subset you're going to see until you're >>> deep in the code. >>> >>> Perl is the victim of an experiment in exuberant, Opensource design, >>> where the bar to adding a new feature was troublingly low. >>> >>> It was undeniably influential. >>> >> >> It's what paved the way for python to fill that gap... >> > > I feel that Perl, and to a lesser extent Tcl, opened the floodgates for a > number of relatively lightweight "scripting" languages that sat between C > and the shell in terms of their functionality and expressive power. From > that group, the one I liked best was Ruby, but it got hijacked by Rails and > Python swooped in and stole its thunder. > > - Dan C. > > --00000000000080bc6a05d10378fc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Perl certainly had its detractors, but for a few years the= re it was the lingua franca of system administration.

-r= ob


On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 8:21 AM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 3:54 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 17, 2021, 1:48 PM Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> wrote:
=
On Wed, Nov 17, 20= 21 at 11:35 AM Norman Wilson <norman@oclsc.org> wrote:
Wasn't Per= l created to fill this void?

Void? I thought Perl was created to fil= l a much-needed gap.
There was and is a need for= something to sit between Shell and C.=C2=A0 But it needn't be filled b= y Perl.

The chief problem with Perl, as I see it, = is it's like 10 languages smashed together.=C2=A0 To write it, you only= need to know one of the 10.=C2=A0 But to read it, you never know what subs= et you're going to see until you're deep in the code.
Perl is the victim of an experiment in exuberant, Opensource de= sign, where the bar to adding a new feature was troublingly low.
=
It was undeniably influential.

It's what pa= ved the way for python to fill that gap...
I feel that Perl, and to a lesser extent Tcl, opened the floodg= ates for a number of relatively lightweight "scripting" languages= that sat between C and the shell in terms of their functionality and expre= ssive power. From that group, the one I liked best was Ruby, but it got hij= acked by Rails and Python swooped in and stole its thunder.

<= /div>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.

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