From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 32007 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2023 06:37:44 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 1 Jan 2023 06:37:44 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF11442442; Sun, 1 Jan 2023 16:37:12 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-f48.google.com (mail-ua1-f48.google.com [209.85.222.48]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2F814242E for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2023 16:37:04 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-f48.google.com with SMTP id f25so5600176uaa.3 for ; Sat, 31 Dec 2022 22:37:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=0O0x8C/MUc2Z5tv8Hz57R/ysU4+8sWFLR/OteUSq9rs=; b=UHUl58JOWJVq2EIO72zYA0Rv+a+3ekmi3a8RYRhdI6AOMfnr5b3nCszZHJHsUr+ae4 p3wXQAlC5L53JcvHEH4SPkqh6mZlIx2eR6ElCnpv3FfqUWF2xrpc/zEaX2xU1kkAI+zv yQ0N+OKPxV849AHYvbzOrKHc/L2h4pKqTSciAXtMqsP5Cp4Gb1UAFqXkvvj7Ne/Z5Fqm um3rhXpmcr9x/2znncg4gfzYqiobVcA3q/igCqU8gYZLHL+IVXqx4IvzM7JTq7zRshEh JM2KB/C06kWKIH/O1T55hlX92JaptHCh1GUiMPeHP+NJw06G4GbhY/4afTCAY56G2PeN xUEA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=0O0x8C/MUc2Z5tv8Hz57R/ysU4+8sWFLR/OteUSq9rs=; b=Y1Fydp3ONqJW7gss5TerixCcx90GVkNMkEGc4c++EtAueuQbpQl5Dg+/QL7a5zWS3P BQ4Sg5TbfKpMK76BnovcVsGWPD+NSnPhVba2ztmXbuA39/z5OalwM3Vso3cMIMmeo98/ hkkzaAWNWJW5/rqFZWU6knQVaFZC3pM8FZe1lfsPxVZ7CDURnEmN3Nss+yv1XOFG2LUq 1DasvSQbxgk9UCLRzWgzyiiY011dZJBKjo0NJy6rnMhi0WVd9yJOspDvTfyyHDBTnBqD Cg3jPdFYMS4x2iomnMoxNCEM4DGC2BWUAtgEldceDQvyEGjxi1FjtsjayzFu/rglxorj /BDA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kqo/D0dBv0dxW32F6Oq9G4ekaMxi6PX9m1ZcaTgFBa+7eiEmC6g Q58Qsfk/jY33Cu6jPE7jPqtNqMAH2KFTafpP7us= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXudTOvAv52wTkkQjxW+Fi80HC0fetPqvrP/dZI5EYoECZVeOTe3nwVeKkz3+MHEcneuz4H37C0JofocRjdDEQw= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:5a4f:0:b0:419:5b8b:4cda with SMTP id m15-20020ab05a4f000000b004195b8b4cdamr3210272uad.8.1672554963457; Sat, 31 Dec 2022 22:36:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <52FB6638-AEFF-4A4F-8C2E-32089D577BA0@planet.nl> <18521483-A73C-4B5F-A76A-6098BD93E9BC@planet.nl> <20230101055213.va3hnzsxzeeot5an@illithid> In-Reply-To: <20230101055213.va3hnzsxzeeot5an@illithid> From: Rob Pike Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2023 17:35:52 +1100 Message-ID: To: "G. Branden Robinson" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000076dd5805f12e0cf0" Message-ID-Hash: 7HO2GF3ICBANR26LHE3D77TVDEZLWUPR X-Message-ID-Hash: 7HO2GF3ICBANR26LHE3D77TVDEZLWUPR X-MailFrom: robpike@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: A few comments on porting the Bourne shell List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000076dd5805f12e0cf0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I distinctly remember I renamed to boot image on our research VAX (alice!) from "vmunix" to "unix". It had been long enough by that point that the lingering prefix was starting to sound like a brag. -rob On Sun, Jan 1, 2023 at 4:53 PM G. Branden Robinson < g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote: > At 2023-01-01T00:35:12-0500, Dan Cross wrote: > > On Sun, Jan 1, 2023 at 12:27 AM Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 9:38 PM Jonathan Gray wrote: > > >> [snip] > > >> Bourne's AsiaBSDCon 2016 talk also lists 1976 > > >> and goes on to discuss sbrk() use causing problems with ports > > >> https://youtu.be/7tQ2ftt3LO8?t=715 > > > > > > And at 5:18 he says he had a vax lab with three vaxen and the Lab's > > > vax port didn't have virtual memory. Bill Joy with 3BSD which had > > > virtual memory. They installed it on the vaxen because they were > > > hitting physical memory limits for some of their programs.... > > > > One wonders what is meant by "virtual memory" in this context. I > > contend that Unix has had "virtual memory" since moving off of the > > PDP-11/20, in the sense of having a virtual address space that was > > mapped onto a (possibly contiguous) physical address space. I think > > all of these references mean demand paging, possibly with page > > reclamation or whole-process swapping under memory pressure. > > I apologize if this point is too elementary, but I speculate that one > possible source of confusion comes from a file naming convention: which > of these (multiple) virtual memory or demand-paged VM systems installed > the kernel under the name "vmunix" vs. "unix". > > Which ones did and did not? > > When I was first learning Unix I asked a local expert why the kernel was > named "vmunix". They told me that it was because it supported virtual > memory (and explained what that was, because I was even more callow then > than now). > > Then I asked where the non-VM kernel was. I was informed that there > wasn't one--it didn't even exist for modern architectures. I wondered > then why, if virtual memory was a given, you wouldn't just go back to > using the filename "unix". > > I wondered similar things when encountering the "vmlinux" file a couple > of years later. > > Reflexive obeisance to traditions has a cost. > > Regards, > Branden > --00000000000076dd5805f12e0cf0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I distinctly remember I renamed to boot image on our research VAX= (alice!) from "vmunix" to "unix". It had been long eno= ugh by that point that the lingering prefix was starting to sound like a br= ag.

-rob


On Sun, Jan 1, 2023 at 4:53 PM G. Branden Robinson <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
A= t 2023-01-01T00:35:12-0500, Dan Cross wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 1, 2023 at 12:27 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 9:38 PM Jonathan Gray <jsg@jsg.id.au> wrote:
> >> [snip]
> >> Bourne's AsiaBSDCon 2016 talk also lists 1976
> >> and goes on to discuss sbrk() use causing problems with ports=
> >> https://youtu.be/7tQ2ftt3LO8?t=3D715
> >
> > And at 5:18 he says he had a vax lab with three vaxen and the Lab= 's
> > vax port didn't have virtual memory. Bill Joy with 3BSD which= had
> > virtual memory. They installed it on the vaxen because they were<= br> > > hitting physical memory limits for some of their programs....
>
> One wonders what is meant by "virtual memory" in this contex= t. I
> contend that Unix has had "virtual memory" since moving off = of the
> PDP-11/20, in the sense of having a virtual address space that was
> mapped onto a (possibly contiguous) physical address space. I think > all of these references mean demand paging, possibly with page
> reclamation or whole-process swapping under memory pressure.

I apologize if this point is too elementary, but I speculate that one
possible source of confusion comes from a file naming convention: which
of these (multiple) virtual memory or demand-paged VM systems installed
the kernel under the name "vmunix" vs. "unix".

Which ones did and did not?

When I was first learning Unix I asked a local expert why the kernel was named "vmunix".=C2=A0 They told me that it was because it support= ed virtual
memory (and explained what that was, because I was even more callow then than now).

Then I asked where the non-VM kernel was.=C2=A0 I was informed that there wasn't one--it didn't even exist for modern architectures.=C2=A0 I = wondered
then why, if virtual memory was a given, you wouldn't just go back to using the filename "unix".

I wondered similar things when encountering the "vmlinux" file a = couple
of years later.

Reflexive obeisance to traditions has a cost.

Regards,
Branden
--00000000000076dd5805f12e0cf0--