From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 29859 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2023 22:17:19 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 30 Jan 2023 22:17:19 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 285644260C; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 08:17:13 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vk1-f179.google.com (mail-vk1-f179.google.com [209.85.221.179]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE1AD425ED for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 08:17:08 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vk1-f179.google.com with SMTP id 6so3833018vko.7 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 14:17:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=tI1YYO8PVRP5fF1qbmC2bnzQUbwks61FaHsmUvbUsso=; b=PMZnaLCFtppUJndr+rlzvY6JVJHw8eMgFrWjfhzKuun+43gC2E+JkKpCm8d0vhe3c8 qYNBJ7w3MEKXR9cUYAcZEseFab4xCfXAOia8eUKxj7wFcmwhPTiiShLavLGBRJ2OHGE3 vkIOvfe+sltcX32iJc7g/e05jx9wC2f92hAUqz5rq6cxrYLRdkyoTOH5OiGZ6t+f6vrI XN9a7zgZEFYYJvSHDCx0jUJPVNvbZuH1fT19ADvPm3RF9C6MJLojCfcbMp+St79QbON+ McbYcCPCWPP4CeG802Bi2Qy3bcVc4SfoUveQfSBWJ1xFEpf+fH1vPxa23KeSv8Gx9oaf zF2w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=tI1YYO8PVRP5fF1qbmC2bnzQUbwks61FaHsmUvbUsso=; b=uuYx4RfvyCX82wTeEVXCOVdA9XhtpYQ5CqOxRIMuRo1NjbSS0/pD3m1X/Z+8V++TIa 5u+3l49iaCQ48d0KwWcGxnM90OLmu90AQnpcuP1FSOZ9pYfs1egf+kuZc5DyCtDE7Bwy LJMGM4SU6jv7OWf3fWYEHvqIgDEsTmBFq72kv2Iuxm5CyCwbdbITQ5iPMhyIi6DC/RI/ b37tQ08J0uUgRseRR8F/spZNPDfLoSqbK5G8pnQ0IuUYOeuo4R2CQ4sFFTc37WHVPKYg w6MNEJU2s07IyGw4f9MgpFgzeEQ4mB+sVoLK4RAki51oS+EaIoGEVviin80wQAu9B1qF K2QQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKVO4rucge421+5wHLJBFNzoZLMLt5bpY1TnKjQPngtsvscQCFmr gFr9X66NOCIbR2u4rVyuj6RuvT+CKIXjP3WeKQyhzR/Y1w8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set/p6OL8nI+OLHSq6EvFvupefMo8zETm7ezXnIPG522g7aZfgtV0fZVE3Lf4izFzZ7CTwzMrMyvdrk76waj4eJA= X-Received: by 2002:ac5:cb7a:0:b0:3e6:da38:e22c with SMTP id l26-20020ac5cb7a000000b003e6da38e22cmr2723399vkn.29.1675116967795; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 14:16:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202301300750.30U7oQTh013304@freefriends.org> <20230130150219.GD12306@mcvoy.com> <20230130152703.GE12306@mcvoy.com> <20230130154555.GF12306@mcvoy.com> <20230130161846.GH12306@mcvoy.com> <20230130212434.GL12306@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20230130212434.GL12306@mcvoy.com> From: Rob Pike Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 09:15:56 +1100 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d29fc905f3828f56" Message-ID-Hash: 5LIU55W5IHVHZPWJEYL5NUN5BUY2HVWZ X-Message-ID-Hash: 5LIU55W5IHVHZPWJEYL5NUN5BUY2HVWZ X-MailFrom: robpike@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: FD 2 List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000d29fc905f3828f56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" There was Plan 9 source available, but the early releases were in the AT&T Unix mode and required some payment or academic connection. The early demo disks might not have had source - I don't remember - but if not, there was simply no room on a floppy. The CD releases had full source. Plan 9 was a research system. It was hoped that maybe one day it would become a commercial success, but that was never the prime motivation. It only "failed" as a product, and there are many contributing factors there, including existing systems that were good enough, a desire for people to have "workstations" and ignore the benefits of a completing window UI on a mainframe (Cray was an exception, earlier), and AT&T lawyers refusing to think realistically about open source (about as polite a way I can express a multiyear fight that never ended, only fizzled into stalemate). As a research system, Plan 9 was a huge success. We're still talking about its ideas 30+ years on. -rob On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 8:24 AM Larry McVoy wrote: > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 02:03:32PM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 11:18 AM Larry McVoy wrote: > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 11:09:03AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:45 AM Larry McVoy wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:35:25AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: > > > > > > Plan 9 was different, and a lot of people who were familiar with > Unix > > > > > > didn't like that, and were not interested in trying out a > different > > > > > > way if it meant that they couldn't bring their existing mental > models > > > > > > and workflows into the new environment unchanged. > > > > > > > > > > > > At one point it struck me that Plan 9 didn't succeed as a > widespread > > > > > > replacement for Unix/Linux because it was bad or incapable, but > > > > > > rather, because people wanted Linux, and not plan9. > > > > > > > > > > Many people make that mistake. New stuff instead of extend old > stuff. > > > > > > > > Some would argue that's not a mistake. How else do we innovate if > > > > we're just incrementally polishing what's come before? > > > > > > I didn't say limit yourself to polishing, I said try and not invalidate > > > people's knowledge while innovating. > > > > > > Too many people go down the path of doing things very differently and > > > they rationalize that they have to do it that way to innovate. That's > > > fine but it means it is going to be harder to get people to try your > > > new stuff. > > > > > > The point I'm trying to make is that "different" is a higher barrier, > > > much, much higher, than "extend". People frequently ignore that and > > > that means other people ignore their work. > > > > > > It is what it is, I doubt I'll convice anyone so I'll drop it. > > > > Oh, I don't know. I think it's actually kind of important to see _why_ > > people didn't want to look deeper into plan9 (for example). The system > > had a lot to offer, but you had to dig a bit to get into it; a lot of > > folks never got that far. If it was really lack of job control, then > > that's a shame. > > It's certainly not just job control. I think it's a combo of being > unfamiliar, no source (at first I believe) and Linux was already > pretty far along. > > The lesson is that if there is an installed base, and you want people > to move, you have to make that easy and there has to be a noticeable > gain. Plan 9 sounded cool to me but Linux was easy. > -- > --- > Larry McVoy Retired to fishing > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat > --000000000000d29fc905f3828f56 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There was Plan 9 source available, but the early releases were in= the AT&T Unix mode and required some payment or academic connection. T= he early demo disks might not have had source - I don't remember - but = if not, there was simply no room on a floppy. The CD releases had full sour= ce.

Plan 9 was a research system. It was hoped that maybe one day it would= become a commercial success, but that was never the prime motivation. It o= nly "failed" as a product, and there are many contributing factor= s there, including existing systems that were good enough, a desire for peo= ple to have "workstations" and ignore the benefits of a completin= g window UI on a mainframe (Cray was an exception, earlier), and AT&T l= awyers refusing to think realistically about open source (about as polite a= way I can express a multiyear fight that never ended, only fizzled into st= alemate).

As a research system, Plan 9 was a huge success. We're still= talking about its ideas 30+ years on.

-rob


On Tue, Jan 31, 2023= at 8:24 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
On = Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 02:03:32PM -0500, Dan Cross wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 11:18 AM Larry McVoy <
lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 11:09:03AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote:
> > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:45 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:35:25AM -0500, Dan Cross wro= te:
> > > > > Plan 9 was different, and a lot of people who were= familiar with Unix
> > > > > didn't like that, and were not interested in t= rying out a different
> > > > > way if it meant that they couldn't bring their= existing mental models
> > > > > and workflows into the new environment unchanged.<= br> > > > > >
> > > > > At one point it struck me that Plan 9 didn't s= ucceed as a widespread
> > > > > replacement for Unix/Linux because it was bad or i= ncapable, but
> > > > > rather, because people wanted Linux, and not plan9= .
> > > >
> > > > Many people make that mistake.=C2=A0 New stuff instead = of extend old stuff.
> > >
> > > Some would argue that's not a mistake. How else do we in= novate if
> > > we're just incrementally polishing what's come befor= e?
> >
> > I didn't say limit yourself to polishing, I said try and not = invalidate
> > people's knowledge while innovating.
> >
> > Too many people go down the path of doing things very differently= and
> > they rationalize that they have to do it that way to innovate.=C2= =A0 That's
> > fine but it means it is going to be harder to get people to try y= our
> > new stuff.
> >
> > The point I'm trying to make is that "different" is= a higher barrier,
> > much, much higher, than "extend".=C2=A0 People frequent= ly ignore that and
> > that means other people ignore their work.
> >
> > It is what it is, I doubt I'll convice anyone so I'll dro= p it.
>
> Oh, I don't know. I think it's actually kind of important to s= ee _why_
> people didn't want to look deeper into plan9 (for example). The sy= stem
> had a lot to offer, but you had to dig a bit to get into it; a lot of<= br> > folks never got that far. If it was really lack of job control, then > that's a shame.

It's certainly not just job control.=C2=A0 I think it's a combo of = being
unfamiliar, no source (at first I believe) and Linux was already
pretty far along.

The lesson is that if there is an installed base, and you want people
to move, you have to make that easy and there has to be a noticeable
gain.=C2=A0 Plan 9 sounded cool to me but Linux was easy.
--
---
Larry McVoy=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Retired to fishing=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat
--000000000000d29fc905f3828f56--