From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 4552ad51 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:59:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 0BF609BD0A; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:59:55 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EF739BCE3; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:59:40 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="lo0DEaAy"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 317089BCE3; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:59:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-f50.google.com (mail-ua1-f50.google.com [209.85.222.50]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6D809BCDE for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 19:59:35 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-f50.google.com with SMTP id a33so3696407uad.11 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 01:59:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JWCf2vQBn6MdVR7mxrxPnc0gqd/D4B96UwlwLt1cXNE=; b=lo0DEaAyTwuYnlKa5uqgR+GrcMD/dYOmtjJiT0OPbkaCt9cs1rdoEBK5dkK88Qnv69 omEyhPsYvO52aBVKNIIg0+jEJ5drpQrZH9kVZh7Z/9m/aZy8rf4twTFFEEArl3skYu1P nueP1NggBB1C/E17MyR0jMzxutRTrBoJa/jriN6YFTdQHlgjX/uVQZOk1mW4Bwr+ulIt picrawKxRxo4oEyUILD/K0TXahelvipF3sFBXJaGkyh7DArZhye7Y+gSpf1BT/2vBlVx HwEFFdsFUlZaD0rGS99n+eugGs3yANPAArF/N/xcheHup5sb3bokU/IvR/QHpYiaA4LN GYdw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JWCf2vQBn6MdVR7mxrxPnc0gqd/D4B96UwlwLt1cXNE=; b=ffM5aZvpPp9GqBxCm+P1YeYb61k1k84qu1FCqvs1RN+oWflE33vo4RI+zfaMuDVs/G tvZeeggXoX5gkgMxDPh8Tq1zz3yXrWxFc2srMAgX3qAKUBiNJzcm5AMpOx1idaw7p4vB O1PJQzzJfftSxmOS8rzTLWVbwVdr1TbpWbY/h3YZAzWZGqtBbYVjhva6Mlw0gCCCDMq1 vV3339NjJs4P/rQ8rPs3apLiQPngEBzT6xA7cardIbkgu55Adsowz2jmIf2RNaRq/l9z 5RGdngU/kp31MbqyFvZtIjITvCthF0yN1JUiMFsrlZ8g6ehGVAmw/fzqrjQ0dVvsq9PH aS2Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXWa3JELhWXYI4drrL4C+Y8UgDUaearXfCoK2cBdte3roIBCGoB RsRpXDvaYir9LJVQ8nBWgjChijSZelWhseIjp9U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzl2oWICiq2grJR5gulIc/unsAid179nkaTg5hTdtO29OfAZtPtX9KHC8jPAGkTR5I4+JDs13Z1M1DvN0AjEC8= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:46c:: with SMTP id 99mr1174667uav.134.1581415175001; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 01:59:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> <202002110933.01B9XqQX004159@freefriends.org> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Pike Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 20:59:24 +1100 Message-ID: To: arnold@skeeve.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bf9dca059e49e9b8" Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000bf9dca059e49e9b8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" My general mood about the current standard way of nerd working is how unimaginative and old-fashioned it feels. There are countless ways we could be interacting with our terminals, editors, and shells while we program, but for various sociological and historical reasons we're pretty much using one from decades ago. I'm sure it's productive for almost everyone, but it seems dull to me. We could be doing something much more dynamic. I mean, xterm is hardly more sophisticated than the lame terminal code that ran in mpx (ca. 1982), other than colors and cursor addressing, which date from the 1960s via early PCs. IDEs don't sing to me, although they are powerful, because they don't integrate well with the environment, only with the language. And they are just lots of features, not a coherent vision. No model to speak of. Compare what happened with our shell windows with what happened with our "smart" phones in the last 20 years and you'll get some inkling of what I think we're missing. It's not that we should program the way we use iPhones, but that there are fields where user interface work has made a real different recently. Not so in programming, though. We're missing out. But I'm a grumpy old man and getting far off topic. Warren should cry, "enough!". -rob --000000000000bf9dca059e49e9b8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My general mood about the current standard way of nerd wor= king is how unimaginative and old-fashioned it feels. There are countless w= ays we could be interacting with our terminals, editors, and shells while w= e program, but for various sociological and historical reasons we're pr= etty much using one from decades ago. I'm sure it's productive for = almost everyone, but it seems dull to me. We could be doing something much = more dynamic. I mean, xterm is hardly more sophisticated than the lame term= inal code that ran in mpx (ca. 1982), other than colors and cursor addressi= ng, which date from the 1960s via early PCs. IDEs don't sing to me, alt= hough they are powerful, because they don't integrate well with the env= ironment, only with the language. And they are just lots of features, not a= coherent vision. No model to speak of.

Compare what hap= pened with our shell windows with what happened with our "smart" = phones in the last 20 years and you'll get some inkling of what I think= we're missing. It's not that we should program the way we use iPho= nes, but that there are fields where user interface work has made a real di= fferent recently. Not so in programming, though. We're missing out.
=

But I'm a grumpy old man and getting far off topic.= Warren should cry, "enough!".

-rob
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