From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id a655dce9 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 18:55:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 94A019CD82; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 04:55:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 244669CD74; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 04:55:13 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="NSBt7BTX"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 392359CD74; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 04:55:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-f41.google.com (mail-ua1-f41.google.com [209.85.222.41]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F9F49CD72 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 04:55:09 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-f41.google.com with SMTP id l6so4352363uap.13 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 10:55:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jd/6Om2UQzTLt+P60f7/FIaopK00FUb601UM6qGD/Zw=; b=NSBt7BTXmvdQkZQbUmiwuYZ5B9GwpnZtR0WlQvDMT9Bn0QfmfvSYJHBkQ3YNCHn+e9 U9EK+R5EsBJKhrnjqVchvSLDHUZWXP0zG4BooYFPnIXMDyTWf+wLD7Xdb66a9OeTmRAB 9UtTW7bvvo8ld9ivTLPZByIPxf1TaQs8PCW4VtkYU9kwcE+j3SeCrJcH0xuBzkWcS4Ql lUVA7+ryWHtB3yReNIy3oEm8iy02/9v6OWPtlfSFLPN3mV88McgP8oFKzVQyCM/0PCsT JrWxNUF2ctCd7A1ZJyhPyVuIFYIfCaH5e3Cq9RgHZKFIxrnCWqEFasBPlyeNZi3mUxlu /qBQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jd/6Om2UQzTLt+P60f7/FIaopK00FUb601UM6qGD/Zw=; b=LOzaBbZOI8tQcdbg35jaFp47/UxuYXfFfwA3Pw346BDTejrg5l8XWuS84KvgE/7PLs cr7qgr0YldxClM6osauek2yfK6cvp+lOOjns/xfCkmmDMTi5uf03Fakj7/5ehHHSzq+2 4EASeJzieoto7SxXTixvLOBgSOnQ+UvwlmlxVmTNIfs2b9EMa2g+BXTwuoofb7RHWXFM inP9I8sbMes00sB6DBymoR05RWGbnInXwfoOSK752RiOXfappeUe7X8sZwfYpsYmBaZi pD+/AhyPWmnwszDVRIQUMHTPU/Pn+3HAPeGRPn14hOJjgdy9OqK7Hf9hkwzc6ZSC87UX JAZQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVGjEwWK7UpV0x5cUjA1pBxrUANMnWvLcbOUPU/xZfsNL3KLkj4 tfqbZO8cJE2hMNfev80G9gYH+hlM3RgetZfVMFg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw16hr7xWB/gaY8ScP0w3RpLXoLHOLm/ggRDnWQRtCB9rCdXHO+jldMYNXMyYgHBORRvFbMVarNu4hyllsXEAk= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:46c:: with SMTP id 99mr2457131uav.134.1581447308721; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 10:55:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202002101546.01AFkOSc001266@freefriends.org> <202002110933.01B9XqQX004159@freefriends.org> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Pike Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 05:54:57 +1100 Message-ID: To: Christopher Browne Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001144b8059e5165db" Subject: Re: [TUHS] V9 shell [was Re: Warner's Early Unix Presentation] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000001144b8059e5165db Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Acme was definitely inspired by Oberon the system. I visited ETH a number of times in the '80s and there were some properties of Oberon I found attractive. Acme definitely grew out of thinking I did there, but of course it was not tied to any language (unlike Oberon or an IDE), but rather integrated the Plan 9 command environment. Also, the button 3 context-getting thing was completely new, and when I spoke at ETH later about Acme, Wirth singled out that feature as something of interest. Sam predates all that. -rob On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 5:35 AM Christopher Browne wrote: > On Tue, 11 Feb 2020 at 05:00, Rob Pike wrote: > >> My general mood about the current standard way of nerd working is how >> unimaginative and old-fashioned it feels. There are countless ways we could >> be interacting with our terminals, editors, and shells while we program, >> but for various sociological and historical reasons we're pretty much using >> one from decades ago. I'm sure it's productive for almost everyone, but it >> seems dull to me. We could be doing something much more dynamic. I mean, >> xterm is hardly more sophisticated than the lame terminal code that ran in >> mpx (ca. 1982), other than colors and cursor addressing, which date from >> the 1960s via early PCs. IDEs don't sing to me, although they are powerful, >> because they don't integrate well with the environment, only with the >> language. And they are just lots of features, not a coherent vision. No >> model to speak of. >> >> Compare what happened with our shell windows with what happened with our >> "smart" phones in the last 20 years and you'll get some inkling of what I >> think we're missing. It's not that we should program the way we use >> iPhones, but that there are fields where user interface work has made a >> real different recently. Not so in programming, though. We're missing out. >> >> But I'm a grumpy old man and getting far off topic. Warren should cry, >> "enough!". >> > > I recently saw indication that the UI for Sam and Acme were inspired by > Oberon. (And per url [1] below, Rob Pike is quoted, sort of...) > > I'd be interested (and I think that's a TUHS thing ;-) ) in hearing some > elaboration on that. All that is said is that "Rob was blown away" and > that this "influenced" Sam/Acme; is there some further explanation of that > worth pointing at? (Or are some Oberon fans putting words in mouths? ;-) ) > > [1] https://lists.inf.ethz.ch/pipermail/oberon/2011/006245.html > -- > When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the > question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" > --0000000000001144b8059e5165db Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Acme was definitely inspired by Oberon the system. I visit= ed ETH a number of times in the '80s and there were some properties of = Oberon I found attractive. Acme definitely grew out of thinking I did there= , but of course it was not tied to any language (unlike Oberon or an IDE), = but rather integrated the Plan 9 command environment. Also, the button 3 co= ntext-getting thing was completely new, and when I spoke at ETH later about= Acme, Wirth singled out that feature as something of interest.

Sam predates all that.

-rob

=

On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 5:35 AM Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2020 at 05:00, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
My general mood about the current standard way of nerd working is= how unimaginative and old-fashioned it feels. There are countless ways we = could be interacting with our terminals, editors, and shells while we progr= am, but for various sociological and historical reasons we're pretty mu= ch using one from decades ago. I'm sure it's productive for almost = everyone, but it seems dull to me. We could be doing something much more dy= namic. I mean, xterm is hardly more sophisticated than the lame terminal co= de that ran in mpx (ca. 1982), other than colors and cursor addressing, whi= ch date from the 1960s via early PCs. IDEs don't sing to me, although t= hey are powerful, because they don't integrate well with the environmen= t, only with the language. And they are just lots of features, not a cohere= nt vision. No model to speak of.

Compare what happened w= ith our shell windows with what happened with our "smart" phones = in the last 20 years and you'll get some inkling of what I think we'= ;re missing. It's not that we should program the way we use iPhones, bu= t that there are fields where user interface work has made a real different= recently. Not so in programming, though. We're missing out.
But I'm a grumpy old man and getting far off topic. Warren= should cry, "enough!".

I recently saw indication that the UI for Sam an= d Acme were inspired by Oberon.=C2=A0 (And per url [1] below, Rob Pike is q= uoted, sort of...)

I'd be interested (and = I think that's a TUHS thing ;-) ) in hearing some elaboration on that.= =C2=A0 All that is said is that "Rob was blown away" and that thi= s "influenced" Sam/Acme; is there some further explanation of tha= t worth pointing at?=C2=A0 (Or are some Oberon fans putting words in mouths= ?=C2=A0 ;-) )

--
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it = to the
question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
<= /div>
--0000000000001144b8059e5165db--