From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id aa31c04a for ; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 09:48:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id EF6879BBE0; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 19:48:36 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E16BA9B684; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 19:48:13 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="fjKt3sYJ"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 03C659B684; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 19:48:12 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f54.google.com (mail-vs1-f54.google.com [209.85.217.54]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D4BA9B4F2 for ; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 19:48:11 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f54.google.com with SMTP id y62so13018778vsb.6 for ; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 02:48:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NbRSU3sFNIbiqTnpTQ3+d3GOQBt67a4HsAXeWErDPy8=; b=fjKt3sYJsT6MzI6Fs7MrHn1hOb6v9rzartmPykzhMNtUg0H1HQ2XcjSLCIqVR3SDst qyqVZZpW7eeAYwBB5H52LEYLtCbv5SWL3j4FQcZHLipvigAVoQZxbhEGcrSnWBCioQ46 5IEkQ0zd1w+bgh3zBz4OFjUR4g1Fz9Z46a9/2dbYmXcm0DWh4ioR/yqe885o9Y5F650K rsh+Hy1tADh6YzLTIIzHFX4t9WHRwFuSjsFN50o9CyLllO+Y+QaBj7l4JgjUZ9Be1KHD YwXQei70SZgA7drZdfoEgFdKrkyBlk87N318nHVARLMElsI+MmWh7pzEMvIiX27WqAop ILtg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NbRSU3sFNIbiqTnpTQ3+d3GOQBt67a4HsAXeWErDPy8=; b=r9AKtF+IDi7/lL5E9tNs5dSrP/gBRtrb674Y1v2Q55ZgZah3gAIGpj5S43YE3ravcA 1qep1eRYauP6SjmhJTHEvpSToPBrcQd/Vj74VWplJ9hLxLTerbuQYFUrLo0brmFIWrJD KX4ZWKjz4u6T5Sj0/w5U9kl5HD2i/EC61tFgyHuMnKpU32p9YDcYKd9GtPzjJfexMWsn CFZoSqzItYOAINNUlqp1BYD77qdHxjVlhuduejrHakxJHpq4eMsH7bkoKc7ruEoKlJw6 hqJerMqnnmCOdyfhy7WdwqLFuyHiJ+6j2aGteslYKujynk5hFTuy2WEd5SUMTzsfEcJs kC2Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVJFWDjy6OopSXFCltb+XK7BovQr6BlOHkIDR0Na+JU2bT0jp+X f2rY/ZURr9fwYW9Oi0cSJxjgcOrH1F8MmtgF8TI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxmYan36Rhoq3DHVHgumKTLUfaZ4x3WcX4ef+n8XPPjVnNmb6GKjvRBW50nbS+kbeS7kUER3nX1/DAp3Gy5zBw= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f2d1:: with SMTP id a17mr12841936vsn.46.1566899290363; Tue, 27 Aug 2019 02:48:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <13c5c36e-c84d-e020-d09e-51c8c502dc6d@kilonet.net> <75a32043-4830-ba04-ee0f-023c5f5ade3f@gmail.com> <20190827003013.GS13570@mcvoy.com> <20190827025310.GW13570@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20190827025310.GW13570@mcvoy.com> From: Rob Pike Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 19:47:58 +1000 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000099dc6d0591162bfd" Subject: Re: [TUHS] If not Linux, then what? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000099dc6d0591162bfd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" V8 was the first of a series of refinements that unified things nicely, allowing programs to interact more smoothly. Nothing too dramatic, really: things like a shell that could export its environment, including functions; tweaks to how $PATH worked so we could have binaries with names like n/m1 n/m2 etc. to connect to machines m1 and m2; a push for output from programs that worked as input to the same programs (a huge deal for the shell); and so on. Lots of cleanups (db really worked, and worked well; stuff like that). Not to mention clean networking and graphics APIs that showed how easy it was to incorporate them into Unix. What is a socket for, anyway? Why do you need them when you have file descriptors? (Rhetorical question, because the answer is, you don't. But the earliest sockets didn't even implement read and write!) And so on. But we did Plan 9 after v10, so it's clear we didn't think it was perfect, yet. -rob On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 12:53 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > Hey Rob, > > I followed Bell Labs through the papers, the Lions doc, but I didn't get > any insight into Research after v7 or so. > > Can you tell us what you liked about the later versions? > > I don't want to be a total suck up but I've been a fan of your insight > ever since you said something like "if you think you need threads your > processes are too fat". I've had long discussions with Linus about how > to make that statement 100% true (partial page table sharing across > processes, how do you make that work in general). We didn't come to > an answer but we both agreed that processes should be as cheap as > threads and mmap is the way to share data. > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 10:58:54AM +1000, Rob Pike wrote: > > I always thought Research 10th Edition was fantastic. Even the 8th > edition > > was an improvement on most of its successors. But things flowed another > > way, with muddy streams mixing in. > > > > -rob > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 10:30 AM Larry McVoy wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 08:19:45PM -0400, Arthur Krewat wrote: > > > > On 8/26/2019 7:56 PM, William Pechter wrote: > > > > >ZFS > > > > > > > > Here, here! > > > > > > I really don't understand the love for ZFS. I hired Bonwick and I > > > hired Moore, I had high expectations but they were all dashed when I > > > realized ZFS doesn't use the page cache. That's so crazy busted I lost > > > all interest in ZFS. ZFS took us back to HP-UX mmap semantics. > > > > > -- > --- > Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm > --00000000000099dc6d0591162bfd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
V8 was the first of a series of refinements that unified t= hings nicely, allowing programs to interact more smoothly. Nothing too dram= atic, really: things like a shell that could export its environment, includ= ing functions; tweaks to how $PATH worked so we could have binaries with na= mes like n/m1 n/m2 etc. to connect to machines m1 and m2; a push for output= from programs that worked as input to the same programs (a huge deal for t= he shell); and so on. Lots of cleanups (db really worked, and worked well; = stuff like that). Not to mention clean networking and graphics APIs that sh= owed how easy it was to incorporate them into Unix.

What= is a socket for, anyway? Why do you need them when you have file descripto= rs? (Rhetorical question, because the answer is, you don't. But the ear= liest sockets didn't even implement read and write!)

And so on.

But we did Plan 9 after v10, so = it's clear we didn't think it was perfect, yet.

=
-rob


On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 12:53 PM = Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:=
Hey Rob,

I followed Bell Labs through the papers, the Lions doc, but I didn't ge= t
any insight into Research after v7 or so.

Can you tell us what you liked about the later versions?

I don't want to be a total suck up but I've been a fan of your insi= ght
ever since you said something like "if you think you need threads your=
processes are too fat".=C2=A0 I've had long discussions with Linus= about how
to make that statement 100% true (partial page table sharing across
processes, how do you make that work in general).=C2=A0 We didn't come = to
an answer but we both agreed that processes should be as cheap as
threads and mmap is the way to share data.

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 10:58:54AM +1000, Rob Pike wrote:
> I always thought Research 10th Edition was fantastic. Even the 8th edi= tion
> was an improvement on most of its successors. But things flowed anothe= r
> way, with muddy streams mixing in.
>
> -rob
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 10:30 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 08:19:45PM -0400, Arthur Krewat wrote: > > > On 8/26/2019 7:56 PM, William Pechter wrote:
> > > >ZFS
> > >
> > > Here, here!
> >
> > I really don't understand the love for ZFS.=C2=A0 I hired Bon= wick and I
> > hired Moore, I had high expectations but they were all dashed whe= n I
> > realized ZFS doesn't use the page cache.=C2=A0 That's so = crazy busted I lost
> > all interest in ZFS.=C2=A0 ZFS took us back to HP-UX mmap semanti= cs.
> >

--
---
Larry McVoy=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 l= m at mcvo= y.com=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://www.mcvoy.com= /lm
--00000000000099dc6d0591162bfd--