From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: (qmail 21924 invoked from network); 30 Mar 2020 09:07:08 -0000 Received-SPF: pass (minnie.tuhs.org: domain of minnie.tuhs.org designates 45.79.103.53 as permitted sender) receiver=inbox.vuxu.org; client-ip=45.79.103.53 envelope-from= Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with UTF8ESMTPZ; 30 Mar 2020 09:07:08 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 6C66A9D9C9; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 19:07:07 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BD319D712; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 19:06:41 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="TSNQPSwG"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 9494A9D712; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 19:06:38 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f43.google.com (mail-vs1-f43.google.com [209.85.217.43]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6B159D711 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 19:06:36 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f43.google.com with SMTP id w14so1247318vsf.7 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 02:06:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UF0ep6Gbf7EnLcYMXXNd59Ij06LHOqmab2X28LuUTEA=; b=TSNQPSwGfuHKwbzyzyzt+mrpgvF8rjEqOWpWs5iCiFPcUzREo9dmwJ5OWSRTmGrnAz hfPRnEWR7k6h/tyenp4cBFINfgkVSZD1xdnUnRm8b52RmvzBJMqy2mGlW9gAvcMp8vuN 4GOZ4WP1+uL93Ces14Pn0lvd/cVSGgPNC0bn7dn6hizYSZY+8+j7RgUWJEhcHHEAQ95C GNP1JtbEi+7rzXB9rpYQVgwZorUtpOGL0GXW+f+70uQ55CCCZwpAQR5eazaO0tSYd6KE tQpJfQyEZ1XwC+ZRxpLYF9FNoAwhvlfGofrW7c6Pa2oOR0cZvuhl62uXSFvQZYKxvVzJ ZC1w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UF0ep6Gbf7EnLcYMXXNd59Ij06LHOqmab2X28LuUTEA=; b=fsXzmcILNTBoLD0EcBqRY99bMXSu9YWgNqRs9LQMALI9MAn9zutWGtlGMmK7A4tiDr rA3Ww7OPvoZlt6yvLw9RwtA+ADo32WNt6EBgcOTJtv1A3jMl9ptzvcgq2C6DgPw+1yeZ alTsIrAL2lJ/JWUhxQIPjZUbp0ASVu6B/5NXukyOH5orVKpcFk6x6EqXX14EFfWDYCiB j+cVXB+U3G2UUq/WCpuDgQZteWs7pMm5noorqJgTMm24KD1OsnEIVn/0Dn1v/v132whx J6xjTf9oF27myvJCD7Qp2m+eTL8MnNdwb3sOJ3kG0I0DqHR5Ml+FIt2csQQbGxNF9Q/S iN7Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZKz8KGEuUjoXA/CKoSwJtiEERW1QlFUk07KhDLWC4VJKwrD3ie RAefdxhifwzT9yHjOCca1UUIqZZmsQMQMx1WgLDGlS2e X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLE4gw26fhI+w5vfWdQ8txhr8ebpkQ2N2t+Qs8ru2MRfZtHkpAZWoQqt5G+2DBctWIIF+36Fakba+pcuWR/rfM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:185:: with SMTP id r5mr7306541vsq.164.1585559195694; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 02:06:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20C3B8BE-E371-4694-8A34-EEC6A5461FAD@planet.nl> <202003291404.02TE4dAI022916@freefriends.org> <2298456D-A786-40C2-9C68-26C99E2002E1@planet.nl> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Pike Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 20:06:24 +1100 Message-ID: To: Paul Ruizendaal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [TUHS] 8th Edition timeline X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" I've looked through my notes and unfortunately there's very little about this as the notes are mostly about graphics and physics. You're right I was a little early above, but the "merge" was not an event. It was a process that went on for months, years even. Dennis wrote the select we used, I'm almost certain of that. We (he and I) talked about its design at the time, after a trip he made to Berkeley about the DARPA Stuff. He had had many discussions with the BSD work going on and wanted to couple it to the streams work to make my graphical multiplexer work. Mpx was killing me (and killing the kernel), but I'm nearly certain that I was using select (with our form of pseudo-ttys) before or by very early 1982. I'm all but certain; we gave up on mpx(2) very early. Streams came later; Dennis's Show and Tell about them was early in 1982. I'm not sure, but we may have booted London & Reiser's VAX port first, but we moved to Berkeley code pretty early. We (Dennis mostly, but others) were talking to Berkeley often. We didn't just wait for a release; we were a part (not sure I could say now how important, but a part) of it from early on. -rob On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 6:44 PM Paul Ruizendaal wrote: > > > > On 29 Mar 2020, at 23:48, Rob Pike wrote: > > > > I have a dog in the fight, having joined in June 1980, but that is not > > a coincidence. The period of 1980-1982 was a big one for 127 (soon > > 1127) as they were finally given the chance to grow, and I was one of > > the lucky early hires in that burst. New blood brought in new ideas > > and things happened fast. > > I had not realised that the Research group expanded in 1980, but it fits. > > > It was also the time of the VAX; the center's 11/780 arrived in late > > 1980 I think, maybe early 1981. > > I did realise that bit, and it made me wonder if the =E2=80=9973 burst wa= s in part driven by the arrival of a 11/45. > > > Our first experiments with graphical terminals spanned 1980 to early 19= 81, > > Yes, as you may remember from this list I dove into that last November - = schematics, tools & firmware. > > > using Greg Chesson's mux, > > Chesson=E2=80=99s MPX files remain a puzzle piece that is somewhat diffic= ult to fit in the overall story, having so many aspects. It sits between Ra= nd ports and SysIII fifo=E2=80=99s, experiments with non-blocking I/O, has = aspects of pseudo-terminals, etc. I have not been able to figure out what i= mmediate need they served, unless it was used in the first generation Datak= it software (as MPX precedes the Jerq, that cannot have been the immediate = need.) > > > but by late 1981 we were using Dennis's streams (only STREAMS when > > they went to USG) and the select system call, which was by then running > > in a merged Berkeley/Research Unix that eventually became the Eighth > > Edition. > > To be honest, late 1981 sounds a bit too early for the merge. The 4.1 cod= e was ready in June 1981 and the =E2=80=99select=E2=80=99 system call was f= irst proposed in July 1981, so it is possible. However, in the BSD line =E2= =80=99select=E2=80=99 was not fully implemented until March/April 1982. > > It is certainly possible, even likely, that =E2=80=98streams=E2=80=99 dat= e from 1981 or earlier. Networks don=E2=80=99t mesh well with TTY line disc= iplines and clist buffering - that pain will have become apparent already i= n 1979. Maybe it was among the first things to be fixed when the VAX arrive= d. > > > My notebooks can probably lock down a lot of this as I was a prolific > > note-taker back then, when they still made paper. > > If someday you have time for this, it would be much appreciated! > > Paul >