From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 5691 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2022 07:12:47 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 2 Nov 2022 07:12:47 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15C3741DC5; Wed, 2 Nov 2022 17:12:42 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f51.google.com (mail-vs1-f51.google.com [209.85.217.51]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC642409FF for ; Wed, 2 Nov 2022 17:12:38 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f51.google.com with SMTP id k1so16265618vsc.13 for ; Wed, 02 Nov 2022 00:12:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=EmIDGbUxj7jOmcITYQhomcb/Fh5leS/SExJ/RwhnIgc=; b=PfgOOooaSD0RUvZywXASnzH+/9N8VLyJzzp5PRedmz4tYWLkwZFonojLIgOf+HJmHN TqpyShG8XiOzlALqyYKWdrCodrFYn67drwxJpNT/C9+aZiLCj1qqVnjh1GC8YXtOGE0g ip57Q1/Zxhx7C/389i1cvVo3AASiw/lIxTkJLkoTUkIckmD4syvhKy95hJx1wZTVBi4P RxUYIWFvNR7y6PAraYTGd0WPgg9gh4sR/6hHek9Xa4ILRN68hoEyJEEdx8YwET3mklHv e3LE2WOFo4dfHNAaAJL1XkIuH0eMLACPOPLCfhhw8rUzkzcmzDrp34PzBUTsa3Py9eoo Tp0A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=EmIDGbUxj7jOmcITYQhomcb/Fh5leS/SExJ/RwhnIgc=; b=W/eOlLBmL51nHB/UxcpSSSbjy7NjcCZ0Tq60Xc0vFz8aH2+oQ0eVimqtcj+sr0CWxD AUSsVabiBAYTr06dcZZXrzTghHNUXe9eQuHkijXyGB3dcaSmILixglE5NpQmCp0b71c9 wmIRctcOpvzMotTo0fzKjv8S7r3OKIyy1iLD4RwFelLeOUQQ2TtnmdUE27GiutSr0Hmn 8YFrYs6LGPZf88IurSLY3yKr/MRxgj10L/mtS2stdR0DVd4lnnCauCQTyQC/krGEZBt7 tHlD+NfgXAJNZjUt/45UAqpJSZxKzjiykedf8wRvAxMHy4DAv/mU+oJl8EF5/4ozIBCH OPZQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf1mk4NclfFgXj3LiRwmpb+wfb/CAb+qn8nQa1+iMb1WjDLeU+ll xnJJSntxDxj4ojOMzuOPaFg10y+K37vX11zcqa66GkpS X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7r0aZVAHyb9Zd4YSrwxB8VRsWDxUMM/o+aMtd0KEvKbvaFn3+nwZYu8lJmyt4Y5WZyZyZyHH1WAf65YO8KllA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:2224:b0:390:5a5e:59a2 with SMTP id d4-20020a056102222400b003905a5e59a2mr9975613vsb.59.1667373097439; Wed, 02 Nov 2022 00:11:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Rob Pike Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 18:11:26 +1100 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Michael_Kj=C3=B6rling?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002e568405ec778d33" Message-ID-Hash: MNYSUGUYCQ3N5YHU5AIELCPZLQIKNYLI X-Message-ID-Hash: MNYSUGUYCQ3N5YHU5AIELCPZLQIKNYLI X-MailFrom: robpike@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000002e568405ec778d33 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Neither ken nor dmr were impressive typists. In fact few programmers were then, at least of my acquaintance. In the 1970s Bell Labs created the Getset - think of it as an early wired smartphone, or a Minitel, with a little screen and keyboard. It cost quite a bit but was a cool gadget so the executives all got one. But, in fascinating contrast to the Blackberry a generation later, no one would touch it - literally - because it had a keyboard, and keyboards were for (female) secretaries, not (male) executives. The product, although well ahead of its time, was a complete failure due to the cultural bias then. There may be a good sociology paper in there somewhere. I'm not saying K&D shared this blinkered view, not at all, just that typing skills were not de facto back then. Some of the folks were even two-finger jabbers. I was a little younger and a faster typist than most of the others, and I am not a good typist by any modern standard. bwk was one who could smash out the text faster than many. His having learned on a teletype, the keyboard would resound with the impact of his forceful keystrokes. -rob On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 5:53 PM Michael Kj=C3=B6rling wrote: > On 2 Nov 2022 13:36 +1100, from sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin): > > There=E2=80=99s at least one Internet meme that highly productive coder= s > > necessarily have good keyboard skills, which leads to also producing > > documentation or, at least, not avoiding it entirely, as often > > happens commercially. > > I wouldn't be so sure that this necessarily follows. Good keyboard > skills definitely help with the mechanics of typing code as well as > text, I'll certainly grant that; but someone can be a good typist yet > write complete gibberish, or be a poor/slow typist and _by necessity_ > need to consider each word that they use because typing an extra > sentence takes them so long. If it takes you ten seconds to type out a > normal sentence, revising becomes less of an issue than if typing out > the same sentence takes a minute or a minute and a half. > > Also, certainly in my case and I doubt that I'm alone, a lot of my > time "coding" isn't spent doing the mechanics of "writing code", but > rather considering possible solutions to a problem, and what the > consequences would be of different choices. That part of the software > development process is essentially unaffected by how good one is as a > typist, and I expect that the effect would be even more pronounced for > someone using something like an ASR-33 and edlin, than a modern > computer and visual editor. Again, the longer it takes to revise > something, the more it makes sense to get it right on the first > attempt, even if that means some preparatory work up-front. > > Writing documentation is probably more an issue of mindset and being > allowed the time, than it is a question of how good one is as a > typist. > > -- > =F0=9F=AA=B6 Michael Kj=C3=B6rling =F0=9F=8F=A1 https://= michael.kjorling.se > =E2=80=9CRemember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog= ?=E2=80=9D > > --0000000000002e568405ec778d33 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Neither ken nor dmr were impressive typists. In fact few programm= ers were then, at least of my acquaintance.

In the 1970s Bell Labs created= the Getset - think of it as an early wired smartphone, or a Minitel, with = a little screen and keyboard. It cost quite a bit but was a cool gadget so = the executives all got one. But, in fascinating contrast to the Blackberry = a generation later, no one would touch it - literally - because it had a ke= yboard, and keyboards were for (female) secretaries, not (male) executives.= The product, although well ahead of its time, was a complete failure due t= o the cultural bias then.

There may be a good sociology paper in there som= ewhere.

I'm not saying K&D shared this blinkered view, not at all,= just that typing skills were not de facto back then. Some of the folks wer= e even two-finger jabbers. I was a little younger and a faster typist than = most of the others, and I am not a good typist by any modern standard.

bwk= was one who could smash out the text faster than many. His having learned = on a teletype, the keyboard would resound with the impact of his forceful k= eystrokes.

-rob




On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 5:53 PM Michael Kj=C3= =B6rling <e5655f30a07f@ewoof.n= et> wrote:
sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin):
> There=E2=80=99s at least one Internet meme that highly productive code= rs
> necessarily have good keyboard skills, which leads to also producing > documentation or, at least, not avoiding it entirely, as often
> happens commercially.

I wouldn't be so sure that this necessarily follows. Good keyboard
skills definitely help with the mechanics of typing code as well as
text, I'll certainly grant that; but someone can be a good typist yet write complete gibberish, or be a poor/slow typist and _by necessity_
need to consider each word that they use because typing an extra
sentence takes them so long. If it takes you ten seconds to type out a
normal sentence, revising becomes less of an issue than if typing out
the same sentence takes a minute or a minute and a half.

Also, certainly in my case and I doubt that I'm alone, a lot of my
time "coding" isn't spent doing the mechanics of "writin= g code", but
rather considering possible solutions to a problem, and what the
consequences would be of different choices. That part of the software
development process is essentially unaffected by how good one is as a
typist, and I expect that the effect would be even more pronounced for
someone using something like an ASR-33 and edlin, than a modern
computer and visual editor. Again, the longer it takes to revise
something, the more it makes sense to get it right on the first
attempt, even if that means some preparatory work up-front.

Writing documentation is probably more an issue of mindset and being
allowed the time, than it is a question of how good one is as a
typist.

--
=F0=9F=AA=B6=C2=A0Michael Kj=C3=B6rling=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =F0=9F=8F=A1=C2=A0https://michael.kjorling.se=
=E2=80=9CRemember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?= =E2=80=9D

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