From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 27fc5d9d for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2018 22:33:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id F32B4A18A1; Wed, 27 Jun 2018 08:33:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81E47A181F; Wed, 27 Jun 2018 08:33:35 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=Jm+AhEuR; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 0A64BA181F; Wed, 27 Jun 2018 08:33:33 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wr0-f180.google.com (mail-wr0-f180.google.com [209.85.128.180]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A59209EDF1 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2018 08:33:31 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wr0-f180.google.com with SMTP id b8-v6so34986wro.6 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2018 15:33:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=KyNrmKvj6Ia+D1uU5lOV97ch+CakOl5kgIG6aRPT3lQ=; b=Jm+AhEuRHIPWZtTBEi3uuYjL/Z6to8Ms51h15+h65jhmitgsm6iYeeGtbVZI4ZkeAC a2kqmmTUj+WmB2ByJTsftfTnkgadBnC8fH+sNUxtA7vO13dYgq8cT5xbBN/566dzTm34 rN6/xSiBA9F5SfRNLNNta1GJEHHBXoBIO8fLBCdYctm8cNXeCPAFNxMEJwfZ+5owDVB2 4eLD6E6ySyaleyoLVsa4ID7SoeYefeJQwrdWrEhbGIb63Ly0ZNJRVC1G1pNodp7oi71s n46XFYyUX+r/1mw3KHI6zc1A2caE/YvxhKsypBopGfuEfghW9TtbT6B+yK4dNOYLMZXo kT0w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KyNrmKvj6Ia+D1uU5lOV97ch+CakOl5kgIG6aRPT3lQ=; b=pht9qrNNg5Ate7XNHcl9wGoK8djbnw+9Kr6yuLCT1PKhm6R6zd7sYqzMsje1YewRgw myKbmTtt0nKPhdbyeev1x0YsEuqnqmGTuUe0jBSEGCmybWebyEGL97LzM0pQMF3Atn3I DjL1T6uJL0/yyhZl0U6hecZ4dC5Z//Iwe315ZqpC9wjlOoOpGucOQH+Hk+tHdoTK7eCd MvrUJtBUlDR5Nq0eeIjCEclBQSp1g0uZRAcFcokVQUA/xIiVIBOEtaY/wTKd0+WrdoLf cOj1hXCBt3iOoDA3jGJ/ibXE2edzdM33vb1puX1T3LedwCBk7rYua9ISGZRD+96jPLH8 vo/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E0+skXlQdpLWOrqOGjVTKaJfaB7hHPDy9eMQNMYnPZYTx76QQ97 oGPjuAIwRShd5p4cGnuAKqHgKWz2S2WxZo+XgRk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcZbFeLl5xWsbxS0tdxZONm6eI2NhnXqLLqF9hlvIrrZisGPptl1ZhH0sNbLYGfi99sE15T5Ewgx2H7oCN7VI8= X-Received: by 2002:adf:96b2:: with SMTP id u47-v6mr2976043wrb.204.1530052410233; Tue, 26 Jun 2018 15:33:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:adf:ade3:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 26 Jun 2018 15:33:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20180626215905.GH8150@mcvoy.com> References: <1f8043fd-e8d6-a5e6-5849-022d1a41f5bf@kilonet.net> <20180626215012.GE8150@mcvoy.com> <20180626215905.GH8150@mcvoy.com> From: Andy Kosela Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 17:33:29 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Ev8LgjwomCC0MzWkfBdjennpIf4 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000066588d056f9316ff" Subject: Re: [TUHS] PDP-11 legacy, C, and modern architectures X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: "tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org" Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000066588d056f9316ff Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tuesday, June 26, 2018, Larry McVoy wrote: > On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 05:54:32PM -0400, Ronald Natalie wrote: > > > > > > So I agree, had the same initial reaction. But I read the paper a > > > second time and the point about Fortran, all these years later, still > > > being a thing resonated. The hardware guys stand on their heads to > > > give us coherent caches. > > > > Fortran is a higher level language. It gives he compiler more > flexibility in deciding what the programmer intended and how to > automatically optimize for the platform. > > C is often a ???You asked for it, you got it??? type paradigm/ > > I think you are more or less agreeing with the author. (I also think, as > Unix die hards, we all bridle a little when anyone dares to say anything > negative about C. We should resist that if it gets in the way of making > things better.) > > The author at least has me thinking about how you could make a C like > language that didn't ask as much from the hardware. > -- > > David Chisnall is known for pushing Go as a next generation C. He even wrote a book about it. I think he has a point in saying that Go was created as direct remedy to many things in C. Most of it features come from decades of experience working with C, and seeing ways in which it can be improved. --Andy --00000000000066588d056f9316ff Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tuesday, June 26, 2018, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
On Tu= e, Jun 26, 2018 at 05:54:32PM -0400, Ronald Natalie wrote:
> >
> > So I agree, had the same initial reaction.=C2=A0 But I read the p= aper a
> > second time and the point about Fortran, all these years later, s= till
> > being a thing resonated.=C2=A0 The hardware guys stand on their h= eads to
> > give us coherent caches.=C2=A0
>
> Fortran is a higher level language.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It gives he compiler = more flexibility in deciding what the programmer intended and how to automa= tically optimize for the platform.
> C is often a ???You asked for it, you got it??? type paradigm/

I think you are more or less agreeing with the author.=C2=A0 (I also think,= as
Unix die hards, we all bridle a little when anyone dares to say anything negative about C.=C2=A0 We should resist that if it gets in the way of maki= ng
things better.)

The author at least has me thinking about how you could make a C like
language that didn't ask as much from the hardware.
--

=C2=A0
David Chisnall is known for pushing Go a= s a next generation C.=C2=A0 He even wrote a book about it.=C2=A0 I think h= e has a point in saying that Go was created as direct remedy to many things= in C.=C2=A0 Most of it features come from decades of experience working wi= th C, and seeing ways in which it can be improved.

--Andy
=C2=A0
--00000000000066588d056f9316ff--