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From: Andy Kosela <akosela@andykosela.com>
To: Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com>
Cc: "tuhs@tuhs.org" <tuhs@tuhs.org>
Subject: [TUHS] Re: FD 2
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 17:57:23 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CALMnNGjG7LmRVYvZdHK8mzv4xmRQkc_nAroFU=PxLZw+_vS79A@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W60rwcUwOS4wZooZtnRg3cUPbQFR5vDjXnVO0vxRtSMhw@mail.gmail.com>

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On Monday, January 30, 2023, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:45 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:35:25AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote:
> > > Plan 9 was different, and a lot of people who were familiar with Unix
> > > didn't like that, and were not interested in trying out a different
> > > way if it meant that they couldn't bring their existing mental models
> > > and workflows into the new environment unchanged.
> > >
> > > At one point it struck me that Plan 9 didn't succeed as a widespread
> > > replacement for Unix/Linux because it was bad or incapable, but
> > > rather, because people wanted Linux, and not plan9.
> >
> > Many people make that mistake.  New stuff instead of extend old stuff.
>
> Some would argue that's not a mistake. How else do we innovate if
> we're just incrementally polishing what's come before?


I would argue that Linux actually did a lot of things differently. It tried
to conform to POSIX, but still there were a lof of fresh ideas that
actually took off.

It was not possible in the free BSD world which inherited much more from
the old Unix world.


> > So now we have
> > things like Rust that is pretty much completely different.  Could we
> > not have extended C to do what Rust does?  Why do we need an entirely
> > different syntax to say the same things?
>
> People tried to extend C to do the things that Rust does and it didn't
> work.


Smells like C++ to me. Rust in essence is a re-implementation of C++ not C.
It tries to pack as much features as it possibly can.

I don't know of any other language that throughout the years remained as
pure and minimal as C. (maybe Forth).


>
> > Seems like Plan 9 fell into that trap.  When you invalidate all of the
> > existing knowledge that people have, that creates a barrier to entry.
>
> Plan 9, as a research system, was an experiment in doing things
> differently. As a research system, it was remarkably influential: a
> lot of the ideas made it into e.g. Linux. Imitation is the most
> sincere form of flattery. As a production system, people just wanted
> Linux. There was a time when people wanted to try out new ideas; oh
> well.


Linux came out in the right place at the right time, right around the time
when the Internet really became a cyberspace spanning the whole globe.
Finland was first connected to the Internet in 1989. Linus bought his first
386DX33 in January 1991.

To me Linux represented a revolution in computing. It built on the
shoulders of Unix forefathers but at the same time was a breath of fresh
air in the Unix space. Young people at the time wanted that. That's why it
became so wildly popular. It was a completely free, idealistic worldwide
movement. It brought together a diverse group of people: university Unix
programmers, home computer enthusiasts and demoscene hackers who just
recently replaced their 8-bit C64's and Atari's with fresh 386-based PCs,
young security hackers who watched too much War Games, etc. It was a very
fresh movement at the time.

--Andy

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  parent reply	other threads:[~2023-01-30 16:58 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 69+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2023-01-20 22:44 [TUHS] " ron minnich
2023-01-20 22:54 ` [TUHS] " G. Branden Robinson
2023-01-20 22:56 ` Rob Pike
2023-01-20 23:11   ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-20 23:14     ` Rob Pike
2023-01-20 23:22       ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-20 23:13 ` Douglas McIlroy
2023-01-21  3:37 ` Jon Steinhart
2023-01-21 15:42 ` Clem Cole
2023-01-21 17:34   ` Warner Losh
2023-01-21 17:50     ` Warner Losh
2023-01-21 18:26       ` Clem Cole
2023-01-21 18:37         ` Warner Losh
2023-01-22 11:05           ` Jonathan Gray
2023-01-22 21:23           ` Warner Losh
2023-01-22 22:10             ` ron minnich
2023-01-23  7:30             ` arnold
2023-01-23  8:32               ` James Johnston
2023-01-23  8:58                 ` G. Branden Robinson
2023-01-23 11:49                   ` Brantley Coile
2023-01-23 14:25                     ` Ronald Natalie
2023-01-23 17:43                       ` Brantley Coile
2023-01-23 16:59                 ` Douglas McIlroy
2023-01-24  7:21                   ` arnold
2023-01-29 18:51             ` Warner Losh
2023-01-29 19:20               ` Ron Natalie
2023-01-29 20:25                 ` Warner Losh
2023-01-30  7:50                   ` arnold
2023-01-30  8:09                     ` Rob Pike
2023-01-30 15:02                       ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 15:16                         ` Dan Cross
2023-01-30 15:27                           ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 15:35                             ` Dan Cross
2023-01-30 15:45                               ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 16:09                                 ` Dan Cross
2023-01-30 16:18                                   ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 19:03                                     ` Dan Cross
2023-01-30 19:12                                       ` Brantley Coile
2023-01-30 21:24                                       ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 22:15                                         ` Rob Pike
2023-01-30 22:50                                           ` ron minnich
2023-01-30 23:05                                           ` [TUHS] Child of plan9? (Re: " Bakul Shah
2023-01-31  3:19                                             ` [TUHS] " Andrew Warkentin
2023-01-30 16:21                                   ` [TUHS] " Steve Nickolas
2023-01-30 16:27                                     ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 16:32                                       ` ron minnich
2023-01-30 16:40                                       ` Clem Cole
2023-01-30 19:55                                       ` Lawrence Stewart
2023-01-31 21:27                                     ` Dave Horsfall
2023-01-30 16:48                                   ` Theodore Ts'o
2023-01-30 16:57                                   ` Andy Kosela [this message]
2023-01-30 17:04                                     ` Warner Losh
2023-01-30 20:38                                       ` Theodore Ts'o
2023-01-30 21:01                                         ` Warner Losh
2023-01-30 21:10                                         ` Clem Cole
2023-01-30 16:03                           ` Bakul Shah
2023-01-30 16:07                             ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 16:13                               ` Bakul Shah
2023-01-30 16:22                                 ` Steve Nickolas
2023-01-30 16:17                               ` Dan Cross
2023-01-30 16:18                             ` Ralph Corderoy
2023-01-30 16:41                               ` [TUHS] job control (Re: " Bakul Shah
2023-01-30 19:07                               ` [TUHS] " Dan Cross
2023-01-30 13:26                     ` John Cowan
2023-01-30 14:30                       ` arnold
2023-01-30  0:25                 ` Phil Budne
2023-01-30  2:08                   ` Warner Losh
2023-01-21 18:27     ` Clem Cole
2023-01-22 10:56       ` Jaap Akkerhuis via TUHS

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