From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 20961 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2023 16:58:35 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 30 Jan 2023 16:58:35 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83A7B4261A; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 02:58:29 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-oa1-f54.google.com (mail-oa1-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E000942618 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 02:58:24 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-oa1-f54.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-163ba2b7c38so3958655fac.4 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 08:58:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:references:in-reply-to:sender :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=D/dBaMu2yEQ7KyhEdBKJhHBhkexVGhqrtqyfkAv5mdw=; b=Vj0MiQXfR8IshkFoeN8oHO0OMrlM3eRbPxt1QEoKWIY9pZSTlMZ3QcAsVkfba21LmZ Yn6Fwkj8kT3jcbKJYoalXpOpoVhk6a0Ij3RcCoR1QE3gBrEwIBtleK+0ZVuikovIcVnX QiAyvYlKGY8pEMze6Bvib76fJ9V3Ab9kcDamztbGgF4Ij3L9AU7ac30k8h1h9n5ZgCtR fXJowQI0BDIfEO4t2OPuP+3qxlTqcDHRQApQj4X2tEqjp3dczKW2AhQ1Z9XxAm4ZWRFJ QPcfvuG7BPzch6ttCdpceaCEiB2+lHi7CjnJN4x3acxK6K34TSwHLrLTgzHdewXLfJDz x0TA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:references:in-reply-to:sender :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=D/dBaMu2yEQ7KyhEdBKJhHBhkexVGhqrtqyfkAv5mdw=; b=6/eSa+o/+UHpLTTiEsmV/v0LJHTp3HT9SqUjSwIVg26oEG13h74vz7qnYjXC/ewjZ3 AxMWVt9R5XtW4sUx6re9iWzX88WVdzZKY25c+jT+NjaOASPogWYexI32GtzVULR7hfd1 L0ErC82jCrn0JE08YQ6p1Uvz4e3X3mCWwnKWE46dMQfX6jQCZ7+HlA5DSU7tkdj3WD4A qwPcfE7zPO+LrL1gtvXDYq0/+O0oBajbdgrQTCFxiXVeO15vlr1c/S49il84UN/e/N4h iMs+zCtgtNYR3ctzHYI3GadcD5VRn5HkJr6VXkwEQIuWfRG7gTY/AVaBrnwLKqspXDHB rc8g== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKV8IsCcgrwJNYXP6XhRID7IvbW7l4QcncIJ0n1HmAVOIzQ25kF5 /YBJ6lLolGTUMpdP9iSMEbg9tpGrTwIV+bx0EoK9JIQg+FE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set8zdl3lRiOacmkhkgj1Dv+t9tcdKuwJp1eKc9qbCkHmQrN8zGT8cUlUrHDcOIC1WPxgoykJgD5IoCp+37KN6sw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:a68a:b0:163:92de:b005 with SMTP id i10-20020a056870a68a00b0016392deb005mr829572oam.22.1675097844234; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 08:57:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: andy.kosela@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a05:6358:9acd:b0:ed:3ecf:acbb with HTTP; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 08:57:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <202301300750.30U7oQTh013304@freefriends.org> <20230130150219.GD12306@mcvoy.com> <20230130152703.GE12306@mcvoy.com> <20230130154555.GF12306@mcvoy.com> From: Andy Kosela Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 17:57:23 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: EKh6S82_98Z_e6guinOqb6JpaTk Message-ID: To: Dan Cross Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f83f6505f37e1b37" Message-ID-Hash: DGG5T75WNOB7X7R223M3V2SEHNFITQES X-Message-ID-Hash: DGG5T75WNOB7X7R223M3V2SEHNFITQES X-MailFrom: andy.kosela@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: FD 2 List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000f83f6505f37e1b37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Monday, January 30, 2023, Dan Cross wrote: > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:45 AM Larry McVoy wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:35:25AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: > > > Plan 9 was different, and a lot of people who were familiar with Unix > > > didn't like that, and were not interested in trying out a different > > > way if it meant that they couldn't bring their existing mental models > > > and workflows into the new environment unchanged. > > > > > > At one point it struck me that Plan 9 didn't succeed as a widespread > > > replacement for Unix/Linux because it was bad or incapable, but > > > rather, because people wanted Linux, and not plan9. > > > > Many people make that mistake. New stuff instead of extend old stuff. > > Some would argue that's not a mistake. How else do we innovate if > we're just incrementally polishing what's come before? I would argue that Linux actually did a lot of things differently. It tried to conform to POSIX, but still there were a lof of fresh ideas that actually took off. It was not possible in the free BSD world which inherited much more from the old Unix world. > > So now we have > > things like Rust that is pretty much completely different. Could we > > not have extended C to do what Rust does? Why do we need an entirely > > different syntax to say the same things? > > People tried to extend C to do the things that Rust does and it didn't > work. Smells like C++ to me. Rust in essence is a re-implementation of C++ not C. It tries to pack as much features as it possibly can. I don't know of any other language that throughout the years remained as pure and minimal as C. (maybe Forth). > > > Seems like Plan 9 fell into that trap. When you invalidate all of the > > existing knowledge that people have, that creates a barrier to entry. > > Plan 9, as a research system, was an experiment in doing things > differently. As a research system, it was remarkably influential: a > lot of the ideas made it into e.g. Linux. Imitation is the most > sincere form of flattery. As a production system, people just wanted > Linux. There was a time when people wanted to try out new ideas; oh > well. Linux came out in the right place at the right time, right around the time when the Internet really became a cyberspace spanning the whole globe. Finland was first connected to the Internet in 1989. Linus bought his first 386DX33 in January 1991. To me Linux represented a revolution in computing. It built on the shoulders of Unix forefathers but at the same time was a breath of fresh air in the Unix space. Young people at the time wanted that. That's why it became so wildly popular. It was a completely free, idealistic worldwide movement. It brought together a diverse group of people: university Unix programmers, home computer enthusiasts and demoscene hackers who just recently replaced their 8-bit C64's and Atari's with fresh 386-based PCs, young security hackers who watched too much War Games, etc. It was a very fresh movement at the time. --Andy --000000000000f83f6505f37e1b37 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Monday, January 30, 2023, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mo= n, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:45 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:35:25AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote:
> > Plan 9 was different, and a lot of people who were familiar with = Unix
> > didn't like that, and were not interested in trying out a dif= ferent
> > way if it meant that they couldn't bring their existing menta= l models
> > and workflows into the new environment unchanged.
> >
> > At one point it struck me that Plan 9 didn't succeed as a wid= espread
> > replacement for Unix/Linux because it was bad or incapable, but > > rather, because people wanted Linux, and not plan9.
>
> Many people make that mistake.=C2=A0 New stuff instead of extend old s= tuff.

Some would argue that's not a mistake. How else do we innovate if
we're just incrementally polishing what's come before?
=

I would argue that Linux actually did a lot of things d= ifferently. It tried to conform to POSIX, but still there were a lof of fre= sh ideas that actually took off.

It was not possib= le in the free BSD world which inherited much more from the old Unix world.=
=C2=A0
> So now we have
> things like Rust that is pretty much completely different.=C2=A0 Could= we
> not have extended C to do what Rust does?=C2=A0 Why do we need an enti= rely
> different syntax to say the same things?

People tried to extend C to do the things that Rust does and it didn't = work.

Smells like C++ to me. Rust in essenc= e is a re-implementation of C++ not C. It tries to pack as much features as= it possibly can.=C2=A0

I don't know of any ot= her language that throughout the years remained as pure and minimal as C. (= maybe Forth).
=C2=A0

> Seems like Plan 9 fell into that trap.=C2=A0 When you invalidate all o= f the
> existing knowledge that people have, that creates a barrier to entry.<= br>
Plan 9, as a research system, was an experiment in doing things
differently. As a research system, it was remarkably influential: a
lot of the ideas made it into e.g. Linux. Imitation is the most
sincere form of flattery. As a production system, people just wanted
Linux. There was a time when people wanted to try out new ideas; oh
well.

Linux came out in the right place at = the right time, right around the time when the Internet really became a cyb= erspace spanning the whole globe. Finland was first connected to the Intern= et in 1989. Linus bought his first 386DX33 in January 1991.

<= /div>
To me Linux represented a revolution in computing. It built on th= e shoulders of Unix forefathers but at the same time was a breath of fresh = air in the Unix space. Young people at the time wanted that. That's why= it became so wildly popular. It was a completely free, idealistic worldwid= e movement. It brought together a diverse group of people: university Unix = programmers, home computer enthusiasts and demoscene hackers who just recen= tly replaced their 8-bit C64's and Atari's with fresh 386-based PCs= , young security hackers who watched too much War Games, etc. It was a very= fresh movement at the time.

--Andy=C2=A0
--000000000000f83f6505f37e1b37--