From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 23126 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2023 22:53:11 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 26 Jan 2023 22:53:11 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BB7E424D5; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 08:52:36 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-oa1-f50.google.com (mail-oa1-f50.google.com [209.85.160.50]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02B05424D3 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 08:52:30 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-oa1-f50.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-15eec491b40so4271349fac.12 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 14:52:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:references:in-reply-to:sender :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=oU8/39e7xAp6/qp5hq1w7WT1HZdEu41jIigNyhcxdQ8=; b=c2gykBr7AFHIfw2jyExpDIXQ/LmCZPyhBFDWjOq91WNZA/5EqTmptyzJpBZYVBbIas wOm++soS5xJ9UGf1iinr/wMI7drSk0/5Q31hsGN/5uQarQ0wt4QUCRWMs2yZ7nNJ/P+1 6cw0xRea32sznrbYBZbwg82Tu4VE9dHDPMf1e+h11b0KtoA5s88TGx0u5NCsf57K9pZ3 aGWmtEO4OAtKA9tGjQU7OlVyNJk6e54cddSjKh/5Bp1xKNXiT01rq5ZWMJUf2bpSvFoT QhcswVek9o4P3FmPzu/1PAZM4nwz6nqROyOGafWxg7jwBKpyFjFgKrEecccwHioaxzDh hkJw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:references:in-reply-to:sender :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=oU8/39e7xAp6/qp5hq1w7WT1HZdEu41jIigNyhcxdQ8=; b=NvqnC1adGbBOgxrVSB66jfBL56Qlk4+41t2WKRQpsCNEp7dafV830fmh17mMJJOElV XiZTTbZ/BiJX28rC23vAfdluN2bd+kwjW8y1gTQf6SZpDYdyGBUkL+DneVJByoKmCY4c 2FqKTfHXkIV9Z6Tx8ed1UXRzwxtPHigqNGIGSTqb6k+AAW71/2Ke4OKdJhnA469PtKof Yq0ei5Sd03w/rX0nXCWoicPU/h6rOY/RzS6h5zLQwOwPQEvr9tW6pWB6yNR+dBv23j0B 37rKEyfy4L3soFkP5pX8bTjWB/8pvN5KphF3REomSfJGlAcGH3FyDHXlmFmFQyRUFttA Qeiw== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKVT4HMZEFmFdFd1hRvUXFyp7/EwPoDesI9dbG/OY40Dctj+ynhk YJF2SpVYzcwsCYX4Yq87OdgIuPl3fuEIDDbpzKE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set9gzJq7XxL5yd2GrJWvgTOFVQ+OVYjZbnpSbydsbw0Or+Vmz52Rsqrs+CEAf4sh203dYbPqdP3k2I/s0t76ET4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:3484:b0:163:210a:ae90 with SMTP id n4-20020a056870348400b00163210aae90mr926534oah.62.1674773489243; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 14:51:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: andy.kosela@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a05:6358:9acd:b0:ed:3ecf:acbb with HTTP; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 14:51:28 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20230125203805.4762218C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7w8rhpdczd.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <20230126105626.72CD922168@orac.inputplus.co.uk> <85d0ee98-3686-b305-49d7-536589b5d3db@e-bbes.com> From: Andy Kosela Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 23:51:28 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: OlnYARmY-2PYne5ZYUC9ywQpzpI Message-ID: To: segaloco Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e7dab505f332968c" Message-ID-Hash: BKJIPRO3HKSJCOLOCUVEV4TLGFBFN7WF X-Message-ID-Hash: BKJIPRO3HKSJCOLOCUVEV4TLGFBFN7WF X-MailFrom: andy.kosela@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Setting up an X Development Environment for Mac OS List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000e7dab505f332968c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thursday, January 26, 2023, segaloco via TUHS wrote: > We benefit from a general culture of openness surrounding UNIX these > days. We see no such openness from Nintendo, Sega, Sony, nor Microsoft in > their video game offerings, neither current nor former, and similar for > publishers and studios for the most part. Anecdotally, when SquareEnix > went to reissue Final Fantasy 8, they had to rewrite it from scratch as the > original PS1 source code had been lost. Apparently this is a pretty common > problem plaguing efforts to roll older titles forward to modern systems, > and is one of the reasons shoddy emulation seems to win out over > intentional ports of anything. > > UNIX experienced the rather unique phenomenon of being able to grow legs > in academia for many years before some legal types tried to put the kibosh > on that. Super Mario Bros. was a closed code base from day 1 with a tight > deadline and little to no reason for it to be shared outside of its own > development group. The circumstances are just so wildly different. UNIX > is a bit of an anomaly as far as being an iconic, ubiquitous, still > appreciated design that succeeds in academic *and* commercial spheres and > also has ample source code and documentation history not only available but > not constantly being torpedoed by lawyers. I don't know that we'll see a > willingness to open up the history of video game development like that in a > timeframe that sensitive source codes and documents could still be properly > preserved. > > Plus, to the defense of these studios, some algorithm or technique > developed for management of game resources may still be very much relevant > to modern engine designs in ways that OS code from the 70s simply wouldn't > even have a place in modern design. I wouldn't be surprised if there are > scene graph and asset manager algorithms and such down in, say, the Zelda > 64 engine, that the big N is *still* using in comparable engines and > considers a trade secret. Hard to say. But anywho, just to draw some > comparisons to the preservation state of UNIX vs other technological > innovations. We have decades of quality OS code to study, research, and > expand upon as hackers, but we have no such wealth of real video game > source codes to educate the masses on game design, especially embedded > console/bare metal approaches. This is where the crossroads lies for me > between my UNIX and game development interests, I would LOVE some day for > there to be as accessible and quality of resources for those studying the > history of game design/development as there are for those studying OS > design. After all, the way I describe old games to people in a technical > sense is its just a specific type of OS. That programmer had to abstract > all that hardware into concepts like button triggers movement of VDP > scrollplanes and emission of commands to the FM synth chip. The thing > you're using is just a Dpad instead of a mouse and you're moving a silly > little character instead of a window across the screen. > > The closest I can think of in the game industry to the open source community of Unix/Linux is Doom/Quake. Doom source code was opened in 1997 and Quake in 1999 and since then we have experienced a whole generation of programmers and artists playing with, porting and enhancing the codebase. I don't know of any other game development project that has as much longevity as those two; and all of it happened because John Carmack made the decision to open source it based on the popularity of open source Linux at the time. --Andy --000000000000e7dab505f332968c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thursday, January 26, 2023, segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
W= e benefit from a general culture of openness surrounding UNIX these days.= =C2=A0 We see no such openness from Nintendo, Sega, Sony, nor Microsoft in = their video game offerings, neither current nor former, and similar for pub= lishers and studios for the most part.=C2=A0 Anecdotally, when SquareEnix w= ent to reissue Final Fantasy 8, they had to rewrite it from scratch as the = original PS1 source code had been lost.=C2=A0 Apparently this is a pretty c= ommon problem plaguing efforts to roll older titles forward to modern syste= ms, and is one of the reasons shoddy emulation seems to win out over intent= ional ports of anything.

UNIX experienced the rather unique phenomenon of being able to grow legs in= academia for many years before some legal types tried to put the kibosh on= that.=C2=A0 Super Mario Bros. was a closed code base from day 1 with a tig= ht deadline and little to no reason for it to be shared outside of its own = development group.=C2=A0 The circumstances are just so wildly different.=C2= =A0 UNIX is a bit of an anomaly as far as being an iconic, ubiquitous, stil= l appreciated design that succeeds in academic *and* commercial spheres and= also has ample source code and documentation history not only available bu= t not constantly being torpedoed by lawyers.=C2=A0 I don't know that we= 'll see a willingness to open up the history of video game development = like that in a timeframe that sensitive source codes and documents could st= ill be properly preserved.

Plus, to the defense of these studios, some algorithm or technique develope= d for management of game resources may still be very much relevant to moder= n engine designs in ways that OS code from the 70s simply wouldn't even= have a place in modern design.=C2=A0 I wouldn't be surprised if there = are scene graph and asset manager algorithms and such down in, say, the Zel= da 64 engine, that the big N is *still* using in comparable engines and con= siders a trade secret.=C2=A0 Hard to say.=C2=A0 But anywho, just to draw so= me comparisons to the preservation state of UNIX vs other technological inn= ovations.=C2=A0 We have decades of quality OS code to study, research, and = expand upon as hackers, but we have no such wealth of real video game sourc= e codes to educate the masses on game design, especially embedded console/b= are metal approaches.=C2=A0 This is where the crossroads lies for me betwee= n my UNIX and game development interests, I would LOVE some day for there t= o be as accessible and quality of resources for those studying the history = of game design/development as there are for those studying OS design.=C2=A0= After all, the way I describe old games to people in a technical sense is = its just a specific type of OS.=C2=A0 That programmer had to abstract all t= hat hardware into concepts like button triggers movement of VDP scrollplane= s and emission of commands to the FM synth chip.=C2=A0 The thing you're= using is just a Dpad instead of a mouse and you're moving a silly litt= le character instead of a window across the screen.


The closest I can think of in the game ind= ustry to the open source community of Unix/Linux is Doom/Quake. Doom source= code was opened in 1997 and Quake in 1999 and since then we have experienc= ed a whole generation of programmers and artists playing with, porting and = enhancing the codebase. I don't know of any other game development proj= ect that has as much longevity as those two; and all of it happened because= John Carmack made the decision to open source it based on the popularity o= f open source Linux at the time.

--Andy
--000000000000e7dab505f332968c--