From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 23623 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2023 01:18:56 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 19 Jan 2023 01:18:56 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D315A4243F; Thu, 19 Jan 2023 11:18:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-oa1-f49.google.com (mail-oa1-f49.google.com [209.85.160.49]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 565CF4243D for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2023 11:18:27 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-oa1-f49.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-1433ef3b61fso930632fac.10 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2023 17:18:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=a4t21ldFbuzU7fBx67AMhSUzKChHnvwEQ25InEyEKq4=; b=PBu2Vq4naf6p5mD+EHvE/s8KNtAGYrdUk+6LlukW5iJ6l6JYUlwD4PvzmLsktNH38L 6vNHQC5pXcg846viYFIbyx/XLPH7Ofnm67IqJLHKN/CnMSfR9D3qPUs876u7hG8wiCYj YJgSaXPPNkVhXCnI/m/5XApq9+KkiPAgw/7aTcv+t8HB2hGkBwdRDYjO4eeijHsgA7LM EdQCzODW5a2EMmjB4T5S703p3tlw7UdkjTHwc3yqJj1ohV3bNDd4UNut/O00JYmm5qVw ku+OhKi3AJubNoE0672Mo1sXDuc1X6FAqhJayUcScIVrsbRQWXeHtRr5JFXjcx1rcquc JmcA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=a4t21ldFbuzU7fBx67AMhSUzKChHnvwEQ25InEyEKq4=; b=kOAlTCQQeciBmfsUhEWzUGb8UnUeP0gQ+5S1bGLe2L3f96kyQ5d8Nu/2JfIEATS1DY Pooen8DBAWC8qaidE5C+c8RnWNNFSzWdAYPGzrRqFhTiwjZums2iO7WvjEUClF79bX8h YdMAeUHQjfi2J3o1Cj1omMVKQbk/uPq+ZvdFpzdI80WmUM7wcH65jnLpo5/GThzQUYnE NToGoByvHT++R+G9FZ7ltH/ph5WtQOYGG8sXUsC5QP+UzVFKMU4ngvfejVJ/Ik2k0nOU nuUrZLTO31buvXATeS3AUWOiN9O5vpswzPyxHDe/UUnsS02Pu01Tb+1Z8fB2TEj4rxnX +xjQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2ko8WjQFS5tkboWarIBU4twoIfynBYUNo1fd2065rZy4de0mI1h3 GMJQk9WSrbw3+nne0+cKrtB9z7CqVOYEHQHNdJM+KvFk X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXtDxOF316fVV8B8GbpIC4kmaDxLYETmcbMQTecV9oh2PifXO2NmJc10yl6rKM4rT0HiAf12POe9Cslt9hrX/rA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:2e0b:b0:15f:98e:520e with SMTP id oi11-20020a0568702e0b00b0015f098e520emr755587oab.175.1674091046453; Wed, 18 Jan 2023 17:17:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202301180943.30I9hrOw030485@freefriends.org> <202301181513.30IFDDUJ015224@freefriends.org> <20230118151446.GD2964@mcvoy.com> <20230118161959.GE2964@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: Marc Donner Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 20:17:15 -0500 Message-ID: To: Adam Thornton Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000025493005f293b20d" Message-ID-Hash: BWUH7XVSCSLH7ZW6SBZ3A554JUIIHETZ X-Message-ID-Hash: BWUH7XVSCSLH7ZW6SBZ3A554JUIIHETZ X-MailFrom: marc.donner@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: AIX moved into maintainance mode List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000025493005f293b20d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Back in the mid-late 1980s I was at IBM Research where I was sort of the proprietor of a bunch of Unix boxes (about 200+, about split evenly between Sun machines and RT-PCs running BSD 4.3 (the ACIS port). I was in the Mathematics department and we called it Mathnet. Rekhter developed the BGP stuff on one of our machines and Zadeck implemented the SSA stuff on one. When the RS-6000 and AIX 3 were under preparation the AIX folks asked us to help get AIX 3 ready for the real world. They gave us a bunch of RS-6000s (we looked at them and laughed - "what a whale" one of us said ... we called the lab Marineland) and we tried integrating them into our UNIX single (single-ish) system image. We maintained our (rough) image consistency by rdisting stuff, including administrative junk, from a central set of machines to all of the others. Well, the AIX systems depended on this database called the ODM (we called it the odious data mangler). The problem was that the designers of the ODM envisioned themselves as managing a mainframe. The ODM commingled information about the installation (the entire site), the instance (the box itself), and the community (users and stuff). This meant that the database included device identifiers. We tried rdist-ing the ODM from our central machine to all the rest of our machines. Oops ... lobotomies all around. I won't bore you with all of the details, but it was a struggle. At one point I threatened the head of AIX 3 development in Austin, TX that I would post the source code of some major component to rec.humor.funny. He was not my friend. Anyway, we did end up making a list of horrible things that they absolutely had to fix. And, to their credit, they got a lot of it fixed so that when the RS-6000 and AIX 3 did ship it was not humiliating. It was probably my first run-in with the pragmatics of shipping real commercial production software. Marc ===== nygeek.net mindthegapdialogs.com/home On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 7:55 PM Adam Thornton wrote: > > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 9:20 AM Larry McVoy wrote: > >> Pretty unrealistic to expect the users to suddenly have the time to do >> kernel dev. Solaris opened sourced itself and it's dead. >> >> > That one's not entirely on the users. > > There's plenty of blame for Oracle as well. > > I was the person nominally in charge of the OpenSolaris port to z (Neale > Ferguson did most of the heavy lifting) when Sine Nomine built it, having > read the tea leaves and believing that IBM would buy Sun. And then IBM > tightened the screws a little too far and Larry Ellison grabbed it > instead. Dammit. > > OpenSolaris development had been pretty lively, but then Oracle made it > clear they didn't have any interest in keeping it alive. Illumos did its > best. > > Adam > --00000000000025493005f293b20d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Back in the mid-late 1980s I was at IBM Researc= h where I was sort of the proprietor of a bunch of Unix boxes (about 200+, = about split evenly between Sun machines and RT-PCs running=C2=A0BSD 4.3 (th= e ACIS port).=C2=A0 I was in the Mathematics department and we called it Ma= thnet.=C2=A0 Rekhter developed the BGP stuff on one of our machines and Zad= eck implemented the SSA stuff on one.

When the RS-6000 and AIX 3 were under preparation the AIX folks asked us t= o help get AIX 3 ready for the real world.=C2=A0 They gave us a bunch of RS= -6000s (we looked at them and laughed - "what a whale" one of us = said ... we called the lab Marineland) and we tried integrating them into o= ur UNIX single (single-ish) system image.

We maintained our (rough) image consistency by rdisting stuff, includin= g administrative junk, from a central set of machines to all of the others.=

Well, the AIX systems depended on thi= s database called the ODM (we called it the odious data mangler).

The problem was that the designers of the ODM e= nvisioned themselves as managing a mainframe.=C2=A0 The ODM commingled info= rmation about the installation (the entire site), the instance (the box its= elf), and the community (users and stuff).=C2=A0 This meant that the databa= se included device identifiers.

We tri= ed rdist-ing the ODM from our central machine to all the rest of our machin= es.=C2=A0 Oops ... lobotomies all around.

I won't bore you with all of the details, but it was a struggle.

At one point I threatened the head of AI= X 3 development in Austin, TX that I would post the source code of some maj= or component to rec.humor.funny.=C2=A0 He was not my friend.

Anyway, we did end up making a list of horrible thin= gs that they absolutely had to fix.=C2=A0 And, to their credit, they got a = lot of it fixed so that when the RS-6000 and AIX 3 did ship it was not humi= liating.

It was probably my first run-= in with the pragmatics of shipping real commercial production software.

Marc

<= /div>
O= n Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 7:55 PM Adam Thornton <athornton@gmail.com> wrote:


On W= ed, Jan 18, 2023 at 9:20 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
Pretty unrealistic to expect the users to = suddenly have the time to do
kernel dev.=C2=A0 Solaris opened sourced itself and it's dead.


That one's not entirely on the use= rs.

There's plenty of blame for Oracle as well= .

I was the person nominally in charge of the = OpenSolaris port to z (Neale Ferguson did most of the heavy lifting) when S= ine Nomine built it, having read the tea leaves and believing that IBM woul= d buy Sun.=C2=A0 And then IBM tightened the screws a little too far and Lar= ry Ellison grabbed it instead.=C2=A0 Dammit.

OpenS= olaris development had been pretty lively, but then Oracle made it clear th= ey didn't have any interest in keeping it alive.=C2=A0 Illumos did its = best.

Adam
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