From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 18436 invoked from network); 28 Jun 2022 13:14:56 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 28 Jun 2022 13:14:56 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19DB9407FB; Tue, 28 Jun 2022 23:14:50 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pg1-f172.google.com (mail-pg1-f172.google.com [209.85.215.172]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B699D40714 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2022 23:14:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pg1-f172.google.com with SMTP id s206so3175633pgs.3 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2022 06:14:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YLunF4Pj2wqBEmAIqjBSTgkOUIh4TM/sRAAhHSbFm6M=; b=ZrK9aBVW0MmoDhBvihaKp9Mr6erAd9f0praPjDzV8HWlXPsqd46Tie4vIvVCBSNhbw 28nt4hE8VsuVH+M06eHD1ZCgplJs3yYCMYEp0FVX5WOz2XedawvUz7uJRyt+dDKoQ0iD 9bcshy6UzKtKJAhCHL29vqaarRY73CJ7QUihr/dUSoJD6NIsB48YOzXG9kQOWG9O5NI4 TfwMXS+gtMw0vmdkxCkBL4AqgyF3IIn6eKfh6poSzOaSYsaGBindrogBTBAyaMq3jmax E+3GX8yIgTsXYHysHg9BTuo2GRI2HCapdntsR9gk2qbCm2EDvQfuN+z6ioI2jpeVrkHw Yo1g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YLunF4Pj2wqBEmAIqjBSTgkOUIh4TM/sRAAhHSbFm6M=; b=bre6/JnafjjKSm0FBRZ1cwATtEKzMQWiJdEO0QZZzGCSoFFCFsFYXNza7orVhA0xqV WUDVh9KUU6x36hpm+R+yyuPVwafwHhx5qOPxNHYr9nObvEd8aeL445rgCZ661pbdwVJ7 NJ8DSqx+Srjc11B2NGFgAuCBfPyrxoChGku2qkSQtp/DfllbSnnQzctNZyDLq+XxJeiQ 7Kf8wCmU2PXVKm8dOGOhp92YAGTmwh4CwZkKAQopYhPCrWfVWSbA5iSN8ZsL251cECaK A684dI02oHP3qfgjTYRjGeHYxvVbelYPic62c1A5npPyB6EI05SpKodzw6JdqvOHXQGd TnOg== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora+I/TNZJ6VBrfBHwp2J2NES+QGoE3JX0W4yS/yHYzyE2uTTT4Ld hXWUFdBftmYQM3uo0/gNvdRDsosOF16xl/M+PQ/ZkRlZ X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1uFcvawsds5Q0/z+yoiQmagMRrbsAn0yBNAQ4+BhAtInPB+blpGpge6sOVX+QiXr0xP+aLPmOFuFK79e1N8034= X-Received: by 2002:a63:b34d:0:b0:40c:76b2:b725 with SMTP id x13-20020a63b34d000000b0040c76b2b725mr17529921pgt.440.1656422026149; Tue, 28 Jun 2022 06:13:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2803DC51-6CBC-4257-B40C-8A559C27CAE3@planet.nl> <20220625230939.GG19404@mcvoy.com> <0CA3B3AA-6491-47A5-843D-CDF2F3A74659@cfcl.com> In-Reply-To: <0CA3B3AA-6491-47A5-843D-CDF2F3A74659@cfcl.com> From: Marc Donner Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2022 09:13:34 -0400 Message-ID: To: Rich Morin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000077855105e281ce32" Message-ID-Hash: WTWZBHSZIBTFQ6RBPRBRKCEWUULIKI4W X-Message-ID-Hash: WTWZBHSZIBTFQ6RBPRBRKCEWUULIKI4W X-MailFrom: marc.donner@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Research Datakit notes List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000077855105e281ce32 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" In the mid-1980s I returned to IBM Research after finishing up at CMU. I smuggled a bunch of Sun machines in and strung Ethernet between my office and my lab so that the desktop could talk to the server. Then I went around IBM giving talks about TCP/IP and why IBM should commit to it. At the time IBM Research was the center of development of IBM's SNA stuff, so there was some (!) tension. (Particularly because Paul Greene, one of the key leaders of the SNA work, was very close to my undergraduate mentor, so I had socialized with him.) They proposed running TCP/IP encapsulated in SNA, but I told them that the best they could expect was to encapsulate SNA in TCP/IP. That turned out to be what happened. My perception of the debate at the time was that it pitted proprietary networking (SNA, DECNet, ...) against open networking (TCP/IP). The hardware vendors wanted proprietary networking to lock customers into their equipment, but that dog would not hunt. Meanwhile, our community had recently discovered how horrible proprietary tech was for our careers ... the mid-1980s recession led to serious layoffs in the system programmer community and the newly unemployed geeks discovered that the skills so assiduously honed were not portable. Enter FSK and the open source movement. It was pretty clear that except for the clever encapsulation stuff that Vint had done with IP, the TCP/IP world was quick and dirty and quite slapdash. But it was non-proprietary and that is what won the race. What I don't understand is whether Rob's observation about networking is *fundamental* to the space or *incidental* to the implementation. I would love to be educated on that. Marc ===== nygeek.net mindthegapdialogs.com/home On Tue, Jun 28, 2022 at 8:48 AM Rich Morin wrote: > > On Jun 28, 2022, at 05:36, Rob Pike wrote: > > > > I am not a networking expert. I said that already. The issue could well > be a property more of sockets than TCP/IP itself, but having the switch do > some of the call validation and even maybe authentication (I'm not sure...) > sounds like it takes load off the host. > > Some years ago, we set up a front end email server to reject incoming > message attempts that didn't match our list of valid users. This resulted > in a better then 90% reduction. > > -r > > --00000000000077855105e281ce32 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In the mid-1980s I returned to IBM Research aft= er finishing up at CMU.=C2=A0 I smuggled a bunch of Sun machines in and str= ung Ethernet between my office and my lab so that the desktop could talk to= the server.

Then I went around IBM = giving talks about TCP/IP and why IBM should commit to it.=C2=A0 At the tim= e IBM Research was the center of development of IBM's SNA stuff, so the= re was some (!) tension.=C2=A0 (Particularly because Paul Greene, one of th= e key leaders of the SNA work, was very close to my undergraduate mentor, s= o I had socialized with him.)=C2=A0 They proposed running TCP/IP encapsulat= ed in SNA, but I told them that the best they could expect was to encapsula= te SNA in TCP/IP.=C2=A0 That turned out to be what happened.

My perception of the debate at the time was that it = pitted proprietary networking (SNA, DECNet, ...) against open networking (T= CP/IP).=C2=A0 The hardware vendors wanted proprietary networking to lock cu= stomers into their equipment, but that dog would not hunt.

Meanwhile, our community had recently discovered how = horrible proprietary tech was for our careers ... the mid-1980s recession l= ed to serious layoffs in the system programmer community and the newly unem= ployed geeks discovered that the skills so assiduously honed were not porta= ble.=C2=A0 Enter FSK and the open source movement.

It was pretty clear that except for the clever encapsulation s= tuff that Vint had done with IP, the TCP/IP world was quick and dirty and q= uite slapdash.=C2=A0 But it was non-proprietary and that is what won the ra= ce.

What I don't understand is whe= ther Rob's observation about networking is *fundamental* to the space o= r *incidental* to the implementation.=C2=A0 I would love to be educated on = that.

Marc

On Tue, Jun 28, 2022 at 8:48 AM Rich Morin <rdm@cfcl.com> wrote:
> On Jun 28, 2022, at 05:36, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> w= rote:
>
> I am not a networking expert. I said that already. The issue could wel= l be a property more of sockets than TCP/IP itself, but having the switch d= o some of the call validation and even maybe authentication (I'm not su= re...) sounds like it takes load off the host.

Some years ago, we set up a front end email server to reject incoming messa= ge attempts that didn't match our list of valid users.=C2=A0 This resul= ted in a better then 90% reduction.

-r

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