From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 13325 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2023 13:18:37 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 26 Jan 2023 13:18:37 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B94664246A; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 23:18:31 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ot1-f53.google.com (mail-ot1-f53.google.com [209.85.210.53]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C29D42466 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 23:18:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ot1-f53.google.com with SMTP id d6-20020a056830138600b0068585c52f86so782825otq.4 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 05:18:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Q8FrPysFSSRtsd2WwZkJxh5dYgx/PszFN/5XCdW4PFM=; b=jiMidB4swW0FGYFbF2LUB9i2Hz2A0z290yJZRPvuwdilPWIece1+fIT6bw4ayw+VjS qsV/ywTMBaj8y0ck1Bj7CweeWiXH5lssLs7ifnVgR1WcGtLzWeOHQVPBwYOkzJ4rRyB1 t/vO+58BnwxC6cQQSUnTy7eOYWTel0q0mZWbtDijAEnOxnoTKoh2du85cUxAUvCEALjJ 0uXvDGkxigUIWA7MjMVrX+l5ys5HmAJkzPXrVkvB5k6jYpI8QY1T54ETYarRhJbO06yn NGvs6YD+RlOjWYsltC1e7fPKxlufOwgh+sw3cI2K5p/9GBdqqv/7qwEEvI+rInr3cVEk TnpQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=Q8FrPysFSSRtsd2WwZkJxh5dYgx/PszFN/5XCdW4PFM=; b=h/vsXPFTVAvnfZFTRtFoOi1/L5EnmeaiztKl+2axXHGDarjDOSeIhJK8pkdinmWKoT +LqnXkz32TeiG3/cV8onqpoQi39sW3ISvd5aVJf2iChQDQ5bmc48p0i4lZPrIt6I0bDh Z7BRL5lTNbRafpDFO08ovNVBNzs2tA+a8OGI9U0KyZBgV8/cxidyzT0UIWtlZfBMsNke 9syGEj4Z8dfHyG8W+gqrZvn1p4leBOmfE8aPrYXBwLBH5BcHUps8sgkz4g9SfonOWwca Rk6MY+xo8m4cD4vPB8Kgzm5qTEShblGhq2pUCBmO0z2KSrS9o4hLqjsSfwv5oCwIahfm JMvg== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2koVNPM6d2eQbu9DNKvFLr6YThHUFtFoo/FTUuEII54WgYQJ3JGC XfI+En+YpxSEXeauXK4rdIE7wtd8V3zmZXXlJp8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXumYR9lm7BYBrUi89YxbYEnQrBO3X8z+4M7DXxnyElhQ6ADVdST5yEdLNxXUnekVL0XdSFMBZa7uOgjsbzUSYA= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:65c9:0:b0:686:a640:55 with SMTP id z9-20020a9d65c9000000b00686a6400055mr1406647oth.222.1674739045477; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 05:17:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3e272d72-b77a-d347-b5c3-7ed19482e5af@gmail.com> <3h5FEAegoTs6FrhHODiW-rBdB59dt_Rmr4G0PIw7flqaJLsmorgPsilm4f2aJkDud-qEljDjnCJcE1uY05Iw4HNQcyNG4W3wzVlLD0UZfLg=@protonmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Marc Donner Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 08:17:14 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Theodore Ts'o" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e5b37305f32a911c" Message-ID-Hash: XJEIBTIQ5K5T2BFYVDS57YZREGWGEA63 X-Message-ID-Hash: XJEIBTIQ5K5T2BFYVDS57YZREGWGEA63 X-MailFrom: marc.donner@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: TUHS main list , segaloco X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Setting up an X Development Environment for Mac OS List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000e5b37305f32a911c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A couple of years after Athena got going the Andrew project at CMU got started. That project focused primarily on early Sun workstations. There was some fooling around with some sort of Unix on the PC/AT, but the lack of virtual memory support and the weakness of the networking cards for the machine meant that we never saw them. My memory of how X evolved is a bit confused, but there was a collaboration between Athena and Andrew. Each had built window systems independently. My recollection is that Gosling, Rosenthal, and Sidebotham built the core of the CMU one. It introduced the separation between the display engine (the =E2=80=98server=E2=80=99) and the application (the =E2=80=98client=E2= =80=99) using an ancestor of the X Protocol. After a while a consolidated window system was agreed, using front end ideas from the MIT W system and the CMU wm system and preserving the X Protocol. This produced a flexible architecture that allowed an application to run anywhere and display in a window anywhere else. It also made networking support a must. On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 2:54 PM Theodore Ts'o wrote: > On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 11:41:12AM -0500, Rich Salz wrote: > > > Aa for the questions of the UNIX-ness of X, it started in Athena, > which as > > > I understand it was supposed to be relatively OS-agnostic distributed > > > computing? In any case, the predecessor ran on a different OS, not > sure how > > > significant that is to the genesis of what would be called X or what > OS it > > > "started" on. > > > > Athena was about scaling up Unix workstations. It was started with gran= ts > > from IBM and Digital. It was never OS-agnostic. > > Well..... technically Athena was about computing in higher ed. If you > go far back enough, at the very beginning, we used VAX 750's and IBM > PC/AT's running DOS. As soon as the Microvax 2's and IBM PC/RT's came > in, about 2 or so years in, Project Athena switched to Unix > workstations, but in the earliest days (which would have been pre-X > Windows), Project Athena had not yet standardized on Unix or > workstations for that matter. > > The VAX 750's were huge time-sharing systems that you could connect to > via VT-100's and VS-100 that were hard-wired to the VAX 750's, and > telnet from IBM PC/AT's. The smaller clusters used PC/AT's because > they were more flexible as to which 750 you were connecting to; > otherwise, undergraduates had to go to the right terminal room in the > right part of campus to connect to the Vax 750 that you were assgined > to based on the starting character of your last name. (And graduate > students initially didn't have access to Project Athena at all; > although if you were in EECS, LCS or the AI Lab you had access to > dedicated systems, of course.) > > One of the perks for being hired as a student systems programmer back > then was that you got accounts on all of the Vax 750's, so you could > use any terminal room across campus. :-) We then would either rlogin > to our "home" Vax 750, or we had scripts that would replicate our home > directories across the various 750's. > > There was a brief, shining moment that we were standardized on > BSD-derived Unix systems, but then IBM turned down AOS (the "academic" > operating system), and we were forced to use AIX on the IBM RT's, with > all that this implied: SMIT, and other horrors. > > "AIX: it *reminds* you of Unix...." was the saying at the time --- > although we tried not to say that when the IBM engineers assigned > Athena were in hearing range :-). The one saving grace of the IBM > RT's was that they were three MIPS machines, while the Microvax's were > but a single MIPS, and that made a huge different if you were running > TeX or LaTeX. > > Cheers, > > - Ted > --=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D nygeek.net mindthegapdialogs.com/home --000000000000e5b37305f32a911c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A couple of years after Athena got going the Andrew proje= ct at CMU got started.=C2=A0 That project focused primarily on early Sun wo= rkstations.=C2=A0 There was some fooling around with some sort of Unix on t= he PC/AT, but the lack of virtual memory support and the weakness of the ne= tworking cards for the machine meant that we never saw them.

My memory of how X evolved is a bit c= onfused, but there was a collaboration between Athena and Andrew.=C2=A0 Eac= h had built window systems independently.=C2=A0 My recollection is that Gos= ling, Rosenthal, and Sidebotham built the core of the CMU one.=C2=A0 It int= roduced the separation between the display engine (the =E2=80=98server=E2= =80=99) and the application (the =E2=80=98client=E2=80=99) using an ancesto= r of the X Protocol.

Aft= er a while a consolidated window system was agreed, using front end ideas f= rom the MIT W system and the CMU wm system and preserving the X Protocol.= =C2=A0 This produced a flexible architecture that allowed an application to= run anywhere and display in a window anywhere else.=C2=A0 It also made net= working support a must.

On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 2:54 PM Theodore Ts&#= 39;o <tytso@mit.edu> wrote:
<= /div>
On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 11:41:12AM -0500, Rich Salz w= rote:
> > Aa for the questions of the UNIX-ness of X, it started in Athena,= which as
> > I understand it was supposed to be relatively OS-agnostic distrib= uted
> > computing? In any case, the predecessor ran on a different OS, no= t sure how
> > significant that is to the genesis of what would be called X or w= hat OS it
> > "started" on.
>
> Athena was about scaling up Unix workstations. It was started with gra= nts
> from IBM and Digital. It was never OS-agnostic.

Well..... technically Athena was about computing in higher ed.=C2=A0 If you=
go far back enough, at the very beginning, we used VAX 750's and IBM PC/AT's running DOS.=C2=A0 As soon as the Microvax 2's and IBM PC/R= T's came
in, about 2 or so years in, Project Athena switched to Unix
workstations, but in the earliest days (which would have been pre-X
Windows), Project Athena had not yet standardized on Unix or
workstations for that matter.

The VAX 750's were huge time-sharing systems that you could connect to<= br> via VT-100's and VS-100 that were hard-wired to the VAX 750's, and<= br> telnet from IBM PC/AT's.=C2=A0 The smaller clusters used PC/AT's be= cause
they were more flexible as to which 750 you were connecting to;
otherwise, undergraduates had to go to the right terminal room in the
right part of campus to connect to the Vax 750 that you were assgined
to based on the starting character of your last name.=C2=A0 (And graduate students initially didn't have access to Project Athena at all;
although if you were in EECS, LCS or the AI Lab you had access to
dedicated systems, of course.)

One of the perks for being hired as a student systems programmer back
then was that you got accounts on all of the Vax 750's, so you could use any terminal room across campus.=C2=A0 :-) We then would either rlogin<= br> to our "home" Vax 750, or we had scripts that would replicate our= home
directories across the various 750's.

There was a brief, shining moment that we were standardized on
BSD-derived Unix systems, but then IBM turned down AOS (the "academic&= quot;
operating system), and we were forced to use AIX on the IBM RT's, with<= br> all that this implied: SMIT, and other horrors.

"AIX: it *reminds* you of Unix...." was the saying at the time --= -
although we tried not to say that when the IBM engineers assigned
Athena were in hearing range :-).=C2=A0 The one saving grace of the IBM
RT's was that they were three MIPS machines, while the Microvax's w= ere
but a single MIPS, and that made a huge different if you were running
TeX or LaTeX.

Cheers,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Ted
--
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dnygeek.net
<= a href=3D"https://www.mindthegapdialogs.com/home" target=3D"_blank">mindthe= gapdialogs.com/home
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