From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 14127 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2022 23:02:32 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 26 Nov 2022 23:02:32 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B9B540E5A; Sun, 27 Nov 2022 09:01:55 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ot1-f50.google.com (mail-ot1-f50.google.com [209.85.210.50]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A045409E8 for ; Sun, 27 Nov 2022 09:01:51 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ot1-f50.google.com with SMTP id a7-20020a056830008700b0066c82848060so4773677oto.4 for ; Sat, 26 Nov 2022 15:01:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=VJjreniv+Zjp6MX2i854UEzSqpap4OkBv9RzUxv4IV8=; b=mtEHVmlI4tYi6c+bGEZ3XJdCHgWWdXCHQgTcD3Dt57oEOMx/f3Os/ajgLm8PB/Ozvr NNlGuujz+fpMYAPHISbXRsX82QNYjcZThIDfrT+1g6Q/Kkyl183vBLgcxapcet3lCgtK 6NYP/4QYLJifg0RPts+gO0PYynuYssNEaPF5+i10xQYfmTnZ7rcfUXJxnkdZXcFwRVJC Km+YptYJro1B5nLdjoMWfYenlXzenETEB0JgE4kkVmrGzULvjJAR3V+HTsJXXxJtmmwa 9si48ELrEsD1mFjSVFNXdbOKqEXsdpHYnJeah9wFU852GSs1Ef9CpfNbjYPes28XgvSw 2PQg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=VJjreniv+Zjp6MX2i854UEzSqpap4OkBv9RzUxv4IV8=; b=8GQkQ18hZPOhyz6QKl0NV6f9uVwv+ifqJkaTgmKcRfvjhW+vd8CY6231EqlD4Gl1Q+ WPwMN8y5VUrmUbbTKrKdIYOwJnzEeD25ytcxPaBM8q8LAh+ZsedBwi6Q/vWOqM6czdc6 LmDMkqgXYRC+yFYUa8DM0SUt0idMIPab8tFnI7s7dscH2SvCkNPglrtfwxI/SU1QrJ8v 3DcGQb1skmtLZI6t0dq55AKosuuCXtSXdq5Yp55k4rATZuMCUHTq3M552QvZG/atOhjc ELEvGKDxiA8/aIdC26ggp+smDAu8cg+OwtXttd0mVl69NqWl1z552VV80ZWsn3XUb0Nh H1Lw== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pnEIYRye9Y6w9HjlA1ygOJjknAKZZJllY5tEKgHkbFdtp35vKaT k6cI2jMIytiYzxHSGlOuMO36H6Ye3u/O0N3Y2GCUqqBd X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf6PvSq6MMyQHohPivnZS1zOBcpcHEj8B/xZW87i8o9SpTDcoMd8n/x+tFby8GGfvy6IcGskA80g0MS6iOn+dqc= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:4e97:0:b0:66d:b346:7a30 with SMTP id v23-20020a9d4e97000000b0066db3467a30mr22258965otk.56.1669503650485; Sat, 26 Nov 2022 15:00:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8f278bf8-de57-4e77-a3b8-d007d7c3a446@app.fastmail.com> <20221126191827.GV18011@mcvoy.com> <764dda08-f358-4c74-8056-ef8fc80bcaac@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Marc Donner Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2022 18:00:38 -0500 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000009dbd805ee679c5c" Message-ID-Hash: IYJ5JJJA6C2A4VXWKCAMMJQ4CGGB7LGG X-Message-ID-Hash: IYJ5JJJA6C2A4VXWKCAMMJQ4CGGB7LGG X-MailFrom: marc.donner@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Reaction to the 3B2 at Bell Labs List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000009dbd805ee679c5c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My chronology may be borked, but what I remember from that era is that IBM was selling the AS/400 very effectively against the VAX by then and was vacuuming up the market. The problem was that DEC's theory of sales was to have engineers sell to engineers, while IBM sold basement servers to chain stores. The chains bought these things by the bushel basket. The HW and OS were both weird (as seen by the computer scientists at Watson) but remarkably reliable. As near as I can tell, this was what ultimately put DEC under ... I think the 3B2 was collateral damage ... I presume that AT&T did not really have time to learn how to sell machines to the commercial market, particularly to the folks who were buying them in numbers ending in ,000. What I learned while watching from the sidelines is that I (and by extension everyone on this list) was not the target audience. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D nygeek.net mindthegapdialogs.com/home On Sat, Nov 26, 2022 at 4:48 PM Clem Cole wrote: > Seth, I've often said the only reason they sold any of them was that AT&T > required you to buy one as the reference system for SVR3 - so anyone that > wanted to port it tended to buy one 3B2 just to have it as the reference > box. > > Rob's comment about the BELLMAC-32 was interesting. I could never quite > understand why AT&T wanted to create its own microprocessor and associate= d > ISA and try to sell it against the other merchant microprocessors (just a= s > I never could understand why HP and IBM did either - but they were alread= y > formally in the computer business). Selling chips to other people to us= e > for their designs is a difficult business that needs a sophisticated sale= s > and marketing team. Even if AT&T could create a technically > competitive device and get the manufacturing cost structure in line > with Moto or Intel so that the street price could be competitive, the > previous sales and marketing scheme of abandoning UNIX on your doorstep w= as > not going to work, and it was having a new technical sales support team t= o > match Intel and Moto was just not going to happen any time soon. > > Supporting the operating companies is a different beast than supporting, > say, a start-up trying to build a hot new device -> that company's > product. While I suspect Rob and Bart built their own tools for the > redox of the Blit, Rob I ask you -- truly if you have been outside of AT&= T, > could you imagine trying to use that device? I can't. > > I've told the details of the story elsewhere, and they don't really matte= r > here. But I remember being at Masscomp and finding a bug in the new FP ch= ip > for the 68020 - which was causing a 'stop shop' on our newest product - > when one of the factory exercisers/diags started to fail. We were payin= g > a premium at the time and Moto's local folks did not want to listen at > first. Our head of HW came to me because he knew that I knew a bit about > the application program they were using as a test from my grad school > days. With the end help of the Fortran compiler back-end guys in a few > hours of debugging, I was able to isolate the chip failure. Then I wrote= a > new 10-line Fortran example and associated assembler code, which we faxed > to Moto. Moto had a 'Technical Consulting Engineer' on the line from > Austin, and indeed it was validated as a problem, and less than 12 hrs > later their team had figured out what was going on in the chip. > > I bring this up because I just don't see AT&T has been able to react that > way, although, in the end, we had to solve it once Moto figure out what t= he > cause of the error was (a slow charge circuit was wiping out the exponent > in R/R instructions under certain conditions - so we changed the compiler > not generate the sequence so we should still ship). > =E1=90=A7 > --00000000000009dbd805ee679c5c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My chronology may be borked, but what I remembe= r from that era is that IBM was selling the AS/400 very effectively=C2=A0ag= ainst the VAX by then and was vacuuming up the market.=C2=A0 The problem wa= s that DEC's theory=C2=A0of sales was to have engineers sell to enginee= rs, while IBM sold basement servers to chain stores.=C2=A0 The chains bough= t these things by the bushel basket.=C2=A0 The HW and OS were both weird (a= s seen by the computer scientists at Watson) but remarkably reliable.=C2=A0= As near as I can tell, this was what ultimately put DEC under ... I think = the 3B2 was collateral damage ... I presume that AT&T did not really=C2= =A0have time to learn how to sell machines to the commercial market, partic= ularly to the folks who were buying them in numbers ending in ,000.

What I learned while watching from the sideli= nes is that I (and by extension everyone on this list) was not the target a= udience.


On Sat, Nov 26, 2022 at 4:48 PM C= lem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:<= br>
Seth, I've often said the only reason they sold any of them was tha= t AT&T required you to buy one as the reference=C2=A0system for SVR3 - = so anyone that wanted to port it tended to buy one 3B2 just to have it as t= he reference box.

Rob's comment about the BELLMAC-= 32 was interesting.=C2=A0 I could never quite understand why AT&T wante= d to create its own microprocessor and associated ISA and try to sell it ag= ainst the other merchant microprocessors (just as I never could understand = why HP and IBM did either - but they were already formally in the computer= =C2=A0business).=C2=A0 =C2=A0Selling chips to other people to use for their= designs is a difficult business that needs a sophisticated sales and marke= ting team.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Even if AT&T could create a technically competit= ive=C2=A0device and get the manufacturing cost structure in line with=C2=A0= Moto or Intel so that the street price could be competitive, the previous s= ales and marketing scheme of abandoning UNIX on your doorstep=C2=A0was not = going to work, and it was having a new technical sales support team to matc= h Intel and Moto was just not going to happen any time soon.

Supporting the operating companies is a different beast than support= ing, say, a start-up trying to build a hot new device -> that company= 9;s product.=C2=A0 =C2=A0While I suspect Rob and Bart built their own tools= for the redox=C2=A0of the Blit, Rob I ask you -- truly if you have been ou= tside of AT&T, could you imagine trying to use that device? I can't= .

I've told the details of the story elsewhere, an= d they don't really matter here. But I remember being at Masscomp and f= inding a bug in the new FP chip for the 68020 - which was causing a 'st= op shop' on our newest product - when one of the factory exercisers/dia= gs started to fail.=C2=A0 =C2=A0We were paying a premium at the time and Mo= to's local folks did not want to listen at first.=C2=A0 Our head of HW = came to me because he knew that I knew a bit about the application program = they were=C2=A0using as a test from=C2=A0my=C2=A0grad school days.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0With the end help=C2=A0of=C2=A0the Fortran compiler back-end guys in = a few hours of debugging, I was able to isolate the chip failure.=C2=A0 The= n I wrote a new 10-line Fortran example and associated assembler code, whic= h we faxed to Moto.=C2=A0 Moto had a 'Technical Consulting Engineer'= ; on the line from Austin, and indeed it was validated as a problem, and le= ss than 12 hrs later their team had=C2=A0figured out what was going on in t= he chip.=C2=A0

I bring this up because I just don'= t see AT&T has been able to react that way, although, in the end, we ha= d to solve it once Moto figure out what the cause of the error was (a slow = charge circuit was wiping out the exponent in R/R instructions under certai= n conditions - so we changed the compiler not generate the sequence so we s= hould still ship).
3D""=E1=90=A7
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