From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E47BA31AE2 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2024 20:16:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1906043CF6; Sun, 15 Dec 2024 05:16:32 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ej1-x635.google.com (mail-ej1-x635.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::635]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B0D443CF4 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2024 05:16:27 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ej1-x635.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-aab925654d9so219128966b.2 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2024 11:16:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1734203785; x=1734808585; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=znxMb7wiF6aV5lkwsV2lBUWu25y0JUIYTb7ZuBESZNQ=; b=Kz1pghpVew3YKWC5NPMBYzAmg6CFH5rx3ox0uoKKw2wMUDqMjh0nHLeEwsVQeT5r0d yiw6zVhkvY0RcSOFmjZ6tBQvp88wK88K4YXdqNvwjIxHdMIWgbIv4sfDosUgpfGXYG3q YDwLL0I9bAGzbQSt3T9QHwksFSaxDVpl0Mpl4fcY+vMCuTkWR/2dmmK3/CM0T9o2TBXG AEb8St3oxdmxpmaSO03HeCnLDGHOoGKLHmWl5ZBuWGXMaBYrmfp62PWks6Rm9BBTtN6m LbQhqTz0BJLOOnQW9AznJBIB0yse8JFAcQlCAgr+AJhrpLGW0gDneq/hJtlMO6W9CH8k pvog== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1734203785; x=1734808585; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=znxMb7wiF6aV5lkwsV2lBUWu25y0JUIYTb7ZuBESZNQ=; b=oR/JdfH9OL8KJY0OVBgPMleJnAPHH9VtztQB2WRegzg9VeU2dfN9trsw53iR8bfAN5 w+Doz8haiGVRhvXizWsBiEJBS2vbg1DwPwHBwLVC+sJ0AImrd1wu0U20zU3EBfipZbNA 26n0FRZ9P2dAGWDgnhbn5/dyeIejdnTsRf7KuBkqM8k0+sOepswMu3nqnNhrMtJfOOUz 79Ns7kTPcESMBqUoIWaSrUdDHlhXD1ws+7UB7EPf7ICI9teRPie+rkHo4mceZ6oeaQt+ QOWwSDBw7SuvhgEuzSbbPxPMzGNHfvbCDXHeu0Ip5ynCTfO7NoULWrh6A07NBKm0JZy1 ISyg== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWJT1pjlc0sUBx2rAsTNy6hb9D0KEWGVIkhltin/ixp++8QfmO6+qO3WZXyhUW4Zn1C/1v1@tuhs.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzzOOLf/idXMHVMEAlh96/z4/lXWuQzr9BLoRiP+SO8u5tMucF3 fZGRqcTpPk2nwpyv+EqgGjs/nrHwKFeoyEvnmoR45w4rNBjQRqMdRlAiiw0MB5UV1sc6t6cqFFn WHm+zHk8we+h8p+tYurKw7w2Damo= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncuvIRPTcbmzIoIt8Z2F0b0JuiZQyinWJF5eOBZ0KBboKcWlybSlGwGHLtbGsCx tGy3xTW72OIQoYgEpaVqxlvqpWgxnXjxy4+JRFwI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGbKekKZKOt/yDJj9e5tlN96QC+DBRVyFRqiWK5AvBenjp1y4/EZ4kxFA5K46oOGLi+g+ryyUsc4ZqghugZYdw= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:308c:b0:aa6:8814:1545 with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-aab77e8ab1cmr631724866b.41.1734203785212; Sat, 14 Dec 2024 11:16:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20241213155336.GV11590@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20241213155336.GV11590@mcvoy.com> From: Marc Donner Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2024 14:16:13 -0500 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000095fc4b06293fc82c" Message-ID-Hash: T4DTOXL3SWYHEQA4YSVL63MTS6PT3E5C X-Message-ID-Hash: T4DTOXL3SWYHEQA4YSVL63MTS6PT3E5C X-MailFrom: marc.donner@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: TUHS X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: BSD talk program? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000095fc4b06293fc82c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Egad! Back in the day all of the /dev/tty entries were world writable. I used to troll CMU CS Rogue players (when I wasn't playing) from time to time by sending a string to their tty that grabbed the cursor, moved it to where the messages appeared (upper left corner?) and typing "The dangling modifier struck!" That's all it did. I got a lot of pleasure when I overheard two faculty members comparing notes on their experiences with the dangling modifier. Best, Marc =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D nygeek.net mindthegapdialogs.com/home On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 10:53=E2=80=AFAM Larry McVoy wrote: > I loved talk when CS was running BSD on a VAX. You could see who was on > and talk them. Very handy and it was sort of social. > > It's crazy how things were back then, open ports listening for all sorts > of things. I think we were pretty unaware of how nasty the internet woul= d > get. > > On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 10:22:22AM -0500, Clem Cole wrote: > > As for the motivation -- it was simple. UCB is on a hill. I lived at > the > > base of hill and I only wanted to walk up it once a day. Our office > was a > > big pool of about 20 of us next to the CAD machine room on the second > floor > > of Cory Hall. Somebody was usually in the office most nights, but not > > everyone. We all had modems and terminals at home, but only one phone > > line. We had 3 Vaxes in the CAD group, plus my Array Processor. So I > > wanted to be able to ask someone like Peter or TQ to reset the AP for m= e > if > > I hosed it when I was working from home when I was debugging it. Plus > > the obvious social aspects -- "hey you want go get a Pizza/Beer etc..." > > But since we might be working on a different system, Kipps' hack was > > useless. > > ??? > > ??? > > ??? > > ??? > > > > On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 10:14???AM Clem Cole wrote: > > > > > Yes -- I can give this history. > > > Kipp wrote an early version for 4.1BSD - but it is not the version in > the > > > releases. It ran on Ernie and did not do as much. > > > I had used a different program on the PDP-10's and the ARPANET and I > > > started over when Joy added sockets for 4.1A. I also made the infamou= s > use > > > of vax integers instead of network integers (and I knew better - but > really > > > did not think about until a few years later when I was at Masscomp an= d > > > compiled it for the 68000 -- ugh). That version still had a couple o= f > bugs > > > in it (i.e. hung in the 4.1A networking code occasionally), but worke= d > well > > > enough on the CAD systems. I went away to a USENIX conference and > while I > > > was gone, my officemate Peter (Moore) took my code and fixed the > problem, > > > plus he put it into RCS. I gave that to Sam and that's the version > that > > > went out in 4.1C and beyond. > > > > > > Clem > > > > > > > > > ??? > > > ??? > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 9:29???AM Dan Cross wrote: > > > > > >> I'm curious if anyone has any history they can share about the BSD > > >> "talk" program. > > >> > > >> I was fond of this back when it was still (relatively) common, but > > >> given the way it's architected I definitely see why it fell out of u= se > > >> as the Internet grew. Still, does anybody know what the history behi= nd > > >> it is? Initially, I thought it was written by Mike Karels, but that > > >> was just my speculation from SCCS spelunking, and looking at the > > >> sources from 4.2, I see RCS header strings that indicate it was > > >> written by "moore" (Peter Moore?). talk.c says, "Written by Kipp > > >> Hickman". > > >> > > >> It seems to have arrived pretty early on with respect to the > > >> introduction of TCP/IP in BSD: the README alludes to some things > > >> coming up in 4.1c. Clem, you seem to have had a hand in it, and are > > >> credited (along with Peter Moore) for making it work on 4.1a. > > >> > > >> So I guess the question is, what was the motivation? Was it just to > > >> have a more pleasing user-to-user communications experience, or was > > >> discussion across the network an explicit goal? There's a note in > > >> talk.c ("Modified to run between hosts by Peter Moore, 8/19/82") tha= t > > >> suggests this wasn't the original intent. Who thought up the > > >> character-at-a-time display mode? > > >> > > >> Thanks for any insights. > > >> > > >> - Dan C. > > >> > > > > > -- > --- > Larry McVoy Retired to fishing > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat > --00000000000095fc4b06293fc82c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Egad!=C2=A0 Back in the day all of the /de= v/tty entries were world writable.

I = used to troll CMU CS Rogue players (when I wasn't playing) from time to= time by sending a string to their tty that grabbed the cursor, moved it to= where the messages appeared (upper left corner?) and typing "The dang= ling modifier struck!"

That's= all it did.=C2=A0 I got a lot of pleasure when I overheard two faculty mem= bers comparing notes on their experiences with the dangling modifier.
=
Best,

Marc
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
nygeek.net


O= n Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 10:53=E2=80=AFAM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
I loved talk when CS was running BSD on a VAX.=C2= =A0 You could see who was on
and talk them.=C2=A0 Very handy and it was sort of social.

It's crazy how things were back then, open ports listening for all sort= s
of things.=C2=A0 I think we were pretty unaware of how nasty the internet w= ould
get.

On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 10:22:22AM -0500, Clem Cole wrote:
> As for the motivation -- it was simple.=C2=A0 UCB is on a hill.=C2=A0 = I lived at the
> base of hill and I only wanted to walk up it once a day.=C2=A0 =C2=A0O= ur office was a
> big pool of about 20 of us next to the CAD machine room on the second = floor
> of Cory Hall.=C2=A0 Somebody was usually in the office most nights, bu= t not
> everyone.=C2=A0 =C2=A0We all had modems and terminals at home, but onl= y one phone
> line.=C2=A0 We had 3 Vaxes in the CAD group, plus my Array Processor.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0So I
> wanted to be able to ask someone like Peter or TQ to reset the AP for = me if
> I hosed it when I was working from home when I was debugging it. Plus<= br> > the obvious social aspects -- "hey you want go get a Pizza/Beer e= tc..."
> But since we might be working on a different system, Kipps' hack w= as
> useless.
> ???
> ???
> ???
> ???
>
> On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 10:14???AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>
> > Yes -- I can give this history.
> > Kipp wrote an early version for 4.1BSD - but it is not the versio= n in the
> > releases. It ran on Ernie and did not do as much.
> > I had used a different program on the PDP-10's and the ARPANE= T and I
> > started over when Joy added sockets for 4.1A. I also made the inf= amous use
> > of vax integers instead of network integers (and I knew better - = but really
> > did not think about until a few years later when I was at Masscom= p and
> > compiled it for the 68000 -- ugh).=C2=A0 That version still had a= couple of bugs
> > in it (i.e. hung in the 4.1A networking code occasionally), but w= orked well
> > enough on the CAD systems.=C2=A0 I went away to a USENIX conferen= ce and while I
> > was gone, my officemate=C2=A0 Peter (Moore) took my code and fixe= d the problem,
> > plus he put it into=C2=A0 RCS.=C2=A0 I gave that to Sam and that&= #39;s the version that
> > went out in 4.1C and beyond.
> >
> > Clem
> >
> >
> > ???
> > ???
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 9:29???AM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm curious if anyone has any history they can share abou= t the BSD
> >> "talk" program.
> >>
> >> I was fond of this back when it was still (relatively) common= , but
> >> given the way it's architected I definitely see why it fe= ll out of use
> >> as the Internet grew. Still, does anybody know what the histo= ry behind
> >> it is?=C2=A0 Initially, I thought it was written by Mike Kare= ls, but that
> >> was just my speculation from SCCS spelunking, and looking at = the
> >> sources from 4.2, I see RCS header strings that indicate it w= as
> >> written by "moore" (Peter Moore?).=C2=A0 talk.c say= s, "Written by Kipp
> >> Hickman".
> >>
> >> It seems to have arrived pretty early on with respect to the<= br> > >> introduction of TCP/IP in BSD: the README alludes to some thi= ngs
> >> coming up in 4.1c. Clem, you seem to have had a hand in it, a= nd are
> >> credited (along with Peter Moore) for making it work on 4.1a.=
> >>
> >> So I guess the question is, what was the motivation? Was it j= ust to
> >> have a more pleasing user-to-user communications experience, = or was
> >> discussion across the network an explicit goal? There's a= note in
> >> talk.c ("Modified to run between hosts by Peter Moore, 8= /19/82") that
> >> suggests this wasn't the original intent. Who thought up = the
> >> character-at-a-time display mode?
> >>
> >> Thanks for any insights.
> >>
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Dan C.
> >>
> >

--
---
Larry McVoy=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Retired to fishing=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat
--00000000000095fc4b06293fc82c--