From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 22179 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2022 20:35:48 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 3 Jul 2022 20:35:48 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A25E840C73; Mon, 4 Jul 2022 06:35:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pf1-f182.google.com (mail-pf1-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07F7440C70 for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2022 06:35:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pf1-f182.google.com with SMTP id k9so7262164pfg.5 for ; Sun, 03 Jul 2022 13:35:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=98PKEIqScH5qRgyKKLWDj2FQs7Wv7jY+gS05Iznwgg4=; b=qCIAbYCeV/ikaB7MoVp/9l1kPL15il4tyqZEUH753CqmxMZ9M4/06+7HNaYUBuqqK3 vqB37Ts8a77D7FaY0tdOT6016Y1JjpcKSmz1+/ObCFRBqOfbk9VGw03MuexN/yuRFFkn HpJVp+Z9eoBo9OAQNIMxtxhJQfmyWdsDbbq1dLhhu/t2zIAop6M7Rj+oc9uRh+8aqzrx OfO2wTeXD7QIkpVvxB6yotE4ePktr9M559RMnQSyPpGfTFQX+wuBddp/tsfd65FD2iyh DaWVN/WJMQUi1AY9Efa5Ep9IBdJ8XiEr+Nw9EAcurWxFN1++VYq8VL2LJe7pZIKZrYtM 3zrg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=98PKEIqScH5qRgyKKLWDj2FQs7Wv7jY+gS05Iznwgg4=; b=MzKErddPX80T5blk2q5aWh3PcmGDxMLUms0rFZkMfb+KlHsHyBCJglRpPzDxKwxGI5 G2yvoQfFeQmWnTsK9iQpxd70YOHWI7kWZqdotOS0DZhctDbyTkCOgoQvRZQJgIi6tRs7 8hK7OtnjJi0uXnVx97ESkdlx8XFz+0ARx4olHN8CYXQnfHTAecF57gj0DuGvqSq8qXKh FSdLppYgMqgZixj8qc2OT40JSeSyM5KRBi8sTStAxMgjuDIKwW/+hjFmaTL6Bx1j62/O mqCVm+QxFw6j9rnjXAG/3RJOB+AGGYM7YqdQzudIPvwRxd35r+yvRWUpjNTYQN6zR16J qoWg== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora8O/6xMvZ9ggPzREPYEm8JGpqBVRjnf0Z8gSpmeYR4uRbDIuLDV 8PZhq1W1YU74CaBVvVNWMdeJzQYSdmxL8iYBFCDrlfTr X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1vmGPNQCHBA/C9dE+/DkwFgbC/aNcneOjTq9I44gVlh08LtW+R6oS722cKjWl3vpGtmR+nPJx5bSCc5PVbxMss= X-Received: by 2002:a63:b34d:0:b0:40c:76b2:b725 with SMTP id x13-20020a63b34d000000b0040c76b2b725mr22013205pgt.440.1656880479110; Sun, 03 Jul 2022 13:34:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Marc Donner Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 16:34:28 -0400 Message-ID: To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000648cb305e2ec8c0f" Message-ID-Hash: LEH45W24BA5LPWOL56Z5MTNFDK47Z5I6 X-Message-ID-Hash: LEH45W24BA5LPWOL56Z5MTNFDK47Z5I6 X-MailFrom: marc.donner@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: is networking different? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000648cb305e2ec8c0f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Let's add: 0 - The two endpoints of a network connection may be (and usually are) under independent control from one another. ===== nygeek.net mindthegapdialogs.com/home On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 4:32 PM Marc Donner wrote: > On June 28 Rob Pike wrote: > > "One of the reasons I'm not a networking expert may be relevant here. With > networks, I never found an abstraction to hang my hat on. Unlike with file > systems and files, or even Unix character devices, which provide a level of > remove from the underlying blocks and sectors and so on, the Unix > networking interface always seemed too low-level and fiddly, analogous to > making users write files by managing the blocks and sectors themselves." > > I've been ruminating on the question of whether networks are different > from disks (and other devices). Here are a couple of observations: > > 1 - Two different packets may take two different paths from the sender to > the receiver. > > 1a - The transit time for one packet may vary widely from that of the > other. > > 1b - The two packets may arrive in an order different from the order in > which they were transmitted. > > (Note - recently I have been reading Bob Gezelter's monograph [and PhD > dissertation] and I've learned that modern high-performance disk systems > behave more like networks in 1a and 1b.) > > 2 - A packet may never arrive. > > 3 - Behavior 2 not a sign of hard failure for networks, whereas it is > generally considered so for other I/O devices. > > There is probably more to why networks are weird, but these are some of > the big dissonances that seem to me to make Rob's comment resonate so > loudly to me. > > Best, > > Marc > ===== > nygeek.net > mindthegapdialogs.com/home > --000000000000648cb305e2ec8c0f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Let's add:

0 - The two endpoints of a network connection may be (and usually are)= under independent control from one another.
<= br>

On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 4:32 PM Marc Donner <marc.donner@gmail.com> wrote:
On June 28= Rob Pike wrote:

"One of the reas= ons I'm not a networking expert may be relevant here. With networks, I = never found an abstraction to hang my hat on. Unlike with file systems and = files, or even Unix character devices, which provide a level of remove from= the underlying blocks and sectors and so on, the Unix networking interface= always seemed too low-level and fiddly, analogous to making users write fi= les by managing the blocks and sectors themselves."
I've been ruminating on the question of whether netw= orks are different from disks (and other devices).=C2=A0 Here are a couple = of observations:

1 - Two different pac= kets may take two different paths from the sender to the receiver.

1a - The transit time for one packet may vary = widely from that of the other.

1b - Th= e two packets may arrive in an order different from the order in which they= were transmitted.

(Note - recently I = have been reading Bob Gezelter's monograph [and PhD dissertation] and I= 've learned that modern high-performance disk systems behave more like = networks in 1a and 1b.)

2 - A packet m= ay never arrive.

3 - Behavior 2 not a = sign of hard failure for networks, whereas it is generally considered so fo= r other I/O devices.

There is probably= more to why networks are weird, but these are some of the big dissonances = that seem to me to make Rob's comment resonate so loudly to me.

Best,

Ma= rc
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