From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 5588 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2023 13:00:11 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 3 Jun 2023 13:00:11 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 820514106D; Sat, 3 Jun 2023 23:00:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-oi1-x229.google.com (mail-oi1-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::229]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E5DF40D1E for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2023 22:59:48 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-oi1-x229.google.com with SMTP id 5614622812f47-39831cb47fbso2821396b6e.1 for ; Sat, 03 Jun 2023 05:59:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1685797187; x=1688389187; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=oBEYTSEfHSc0BCVlCmJ6WZgQ7gF+W9mh27ZSdOnh6xQ=; b=CX+iaFV8b5qnTYww0tw7P4Gy13fU+uxHqsUgdO04qKMtSHcbpLKbvAXDOEsiPeKKnm B9zuYk8uKvY5RGNq0/yoGFKcj9Wx5nGK/p519v7yIwkaxfoSI1hftZeCD0Rc1+k/3cgX BKDbXce/ubNy3L1SwEc0AHUNnjXZMcKlk25PH9wMqcXPP9KbfhxMqMXS2cFq9rnzfxBM QqDOmq0WhME1ETiJymLUWMV5Yg2VWLPBVCZGpFNwBSZ7vffWYsa0rbvvmW8/Ao3YbfxQ Oo5ig1891ZyLC/cg27fmpXh1M7BefhAKlVsfPKGALUlceEKEeugQaF0J6qJAbaFP/mlx GaHg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1685797187; x=1688389187; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=oBEYTSEfHSc0BCVlCmJ6WZgQ7gF+W9mh27ZSdOnh6xQ=; b=Z881VVzjhGWzR44j2XzBhairet2jdauFBaVqzyi1lWDg0mR920laj4FM6j3cG/B4Yn Ug4DX4X5Ba7okMISgEMwOGukkwxrmFzZtdccA+rBYyM5Jibvhy1zaJ1s78Qz1vVtKkbL O+MsrbOXZaMg0ABrFigTbtbT7W+GCheJRrX1ok/qDIRnX/RkLJQMDQdQnNHqUgTc1Iaa GOLnUrL59tBCAAwL2amKJ2zRVGbyTbRIwbwleWpywpH5kyAhq/2Tc6MJvqwQrDMe63VE dUl9T2NtNhZrkC7qeD+0g+50Ri7qf2xrVBrs11GmUCY+T2KTFRCKRb1y9ICglP/2wq8E U9Uw== X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDwUHQqKBuxOPeOmKjQC7xPdrJcSzoko5/DpMUb3V01JCfMjncyN g3mYdoEFh27Vbb2QfDsrFOd7mTrct2iulZ6mVSs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ61hDMWUu3WgL2ytgrCYiMOKYbqj0LGbmsEByWUcrL5KoTUzvpMBljHtXWaVuSqdSn/w5ym/TEQLRAxl+3z4ws= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:615:b0:394:4603:77f2 with SMTP id y21-20020a056808061500b00394460377f2mr2986150oih.2.1685797186944; Sat, 03 Jun 2023 05:59:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Marc Donner Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2023 08:59:35 -0400 Message-ID: To: segaloco Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007dc44705fd393e88" Message-ID-Hash: GR5MGX7SAYJYHRANM264HITM6GQCUAF6 X-Message-ID-Hash: GR5MGX7SAYJYHRANM264HITM6GQCUAF6 X-MailFrom: marc.donner@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: CB-UNIX dsw(1l) Page from PDP-7? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000007dc44705fd393e88 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wow. I=E2=80=99m impressed =E2=80=A6 that pdf is clearly of an nth generat= ion photocopy. What contrast ratio? More seriously, this is a delightful proof point that some cruft is really cruft. Your document archaeology work is entertaining and instructive. Thank you! Best, Marc =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 7:04 PM segaloco via TUHS wrote: > While performing my CB-UNIX 2.3 manual separation, among the many curious > things I came across was this manual page: > https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/USDL/CB_Unix/man/man1/dsw.1l.p= df > > The dsw(I) pages I've seen in the various UNIX manuals are all for the > interactive delete utility, but make brief mention of the history of the > command being amusing. I've seen some communication on the matter of the > years here, but had never come across a manual page for the former versio= n > of dsw. > > In the linked page up there is the actual "delete from switches" version > of dsw. What I find particularly interesting is that the footer indicate= s > this was printed 8/11/81, but likewise indicates the command is "PDP-7 > local". > > This raises a couple of questions: > > - Did Columbus ever touch PDP-7 UNIX? > - Did dsw(I) as "delete from switches" ever make it to PDP-11 UNIX? Even > the V1 manual lists the "delete interactively" utility, not this. > - If neither are true, that begs the question of where this page came > from, if there was ever a formalized PDP-7 manual that it would've > descended from or not, etc. > > Finally, this page plainly spells out the history of the command in the > bugs section: > > "This command was written in 2 minutes to delete a particular file that > managed to get an 0200 bit in its name. It should work by printing the > name of each file in a specified directory and requestion a 'y' or 'n' > answer. Better, it should be an option of rm(1). The name is mnemonic, > but likely to cause trouble in the future." > > So the first bug is eventually mitigated by transforming this into the > more familiar dsw. I can't say what the latter means, whether it's a > concern of "dsw" colliding with some reserved word eventually or is more > poking fun at the other folk etymology of "delete s__t work". > > In any case, I hadn't seen the etymology explained to this degree in the > mailing list references I found while searching around, so figured I'd > share this analysis. > > - Matt G. > > P.S. There is mention here that Dennis Ritchie shared the original dsw > manpage at some point > https://www.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/1999-November/001203.html however the > link in question appears to be dead. In any case, the source for the PDP= -7 > version is in that email if anyone wants to look at it, although looks to > be the same as what is in the archive. > --=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D nygeek.net mindthegapdialogs.com/home --0000000000007dc44705fd393e88 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wow.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m impressed =E2=80=A6 that pdf is cl= early of an nth generation photocopy.=C2=A0 What contrast ratio?

More seriously, this is a delightf= ul proof point that some cruft is really cruft.

=
Your document archaeology work is entertaining and = instructive.=C2=A0 Thank you!

Best,

Marc
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 7:04 PM segaloco via TUHS &= lt;tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rg= b(204,204,204)">While performing my CB-UNIX 2.3 manual separation, among th= e many curious things I came across was this manual page: https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distribution= s/USDL/CB_Unix/man/man1/dsw.1l.pdf

The dsw(I) pages I've seen in the various UNIX manuals are all for the = interactive delete utility, but make brief mention of the history of the co= mmand being amusing.=C2=A0 I've seen some communication on the matter o= f the years here, but had never come across a manual page for the former ve= rsion of dsw.

In the linked page up there is the actual "delete from switches" = version of dsw.=C2=A0 What I find particularly interesting is that the foot= er indicates this was printed 8/11/81, but likewise indicates the command i= s "PDP-7 local".

This raises a couple of questions:

- Did Columbus ever touch PDP-7 UNIX?
- Did dsw(I) as "delete from switches" ever make it to PDP-11 UNI= X?=C2=A0 Even the V1 manual lists the "delete interactively" util= ity, not this.
- If neither are true, that begs the question of where this page came from,= if there was ever a formalized PDP-7 manual that it would've descended= from or not, etc.

Finally, this page plainly spells out the history of the command in the bug= s section:

"This command was written in 2 minutes to delete a particular file tha= t managed to get an 0200 bit in its name.=C2=A0 It should work by printing = the name of each file in a specified directory and requestion a 'y'= or 'n' answer.=C2=A0 Better, it should be an option of rm(1).=C2= =A0 The name is mnemonic, but likely to cause trouble in the future."<= br>
So the first bug is eventually mitigated by transforming this into the more= familiar dsw.=C2=A0 I can't say what the latter means, whether it'= s a concern of "dsw" colliding with some reserved word eventually= or is more poking fun at the other folk etymology of "delete s__t wor= k".

In any case, I hadn't seen the etymology explained to this degree in th= e mailing list references I found while searching around, so figured I'= d share this analysis.

- Matt G.

P.S. There is mention here that Dennis Ritchie shared the original dsw manp= age at some point https://www.tuhs.org/= pipermail/tuhs/1999-November/001203.html however the link in question a= ppears to be dead.=C2=A0 In any case, the source for the PDP-7 version is i= n that email if anyone wants to look at it, although looks to be the same a= s what is in the archive.
-- <= br>
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