From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 20707 invoked from network); 19 Nov 2021 23:19:44 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 19 Nov 2021 23:19:44 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id DBD7D9449C; Sat, 20 Nov 2021 09:19:42 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1407893D61; Sat, 20 Nov 2021 09:17:38 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="kR2tNlb3"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 8A14E93D61; Sat, 20 Nov 2021 09:17:35 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vk1-f173.google.com (mail-vk1-f173.google.com [209.85.221.173]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3F0D93D5E for ; Sat, 20 Nov 2021 09:17:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vk1-f173.google.com with SMTP id q21so6803858vkn.2 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 15:17:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=gxnh9r58osO5tjIHew3x1aIhwB7eew9LpCB55egMUdY=; b=kR2tNlb3nDWEzsa53Ae2p+aiaFC/KKF6TnrZ5F1AYaXl/+zerWiRAZaKioCWD4tEUv Rs4A/fXBJ/JB+bG5yFfOkiVTxo7waVUnl5aZ6KTjMaK7CuvXKYTIXRcIc359QHx3V7Fg +jtOlfbgHW/fMfcnowjZEiJFzEl3IUb0bOEvh9opq2fM5k1Cx2pjde0q2ijmTfeVSjE+ zMt4og5586FR3SCMcH+ROJINpzakD0kvHal89t+5JGyLOuKOBdKSlZGAhZnx3068soXG 6R5WqcDOYpoXvsyKVjAfdwhj6ZWuPvF/Ne/YwmIzsiMaaUaDWMk6txjgxhxyOr1kGCuZ Gipg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gxnh9r58osO5tjIHew3x1aIhwB7eew9LpCB55egMUdY=; b=HF6NqHdmZcX4HMqWLRZWgUEjWNV7Et42rOHNa0rHofWDZSsOU8AHn8Fl6yw/90wzha cRhSmWFJg74D5PATS3ANULRU08TDJXK/5DDklnbl8kKwxHfAhjyG7p4WXbcqJ3Pj3w+2 GnVswn+KO2oZf3PQ707+kMng77pbsppTBWs6rwou93y70zlUG6fo6k8AFSakbiwJ2wpj q8MSr7nB3ZV92W+MJQzDnxcGCe2J22WB5gwFXU1vZM44weMm6NoCD0259Rwg+xA+6T/z usWjROwz2Oa7Pre4Ej8sOW36mcGmwaXypHErqaRY50ICfdJKP7GDhmDRRiBn79C6PxSa Rf2w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533tqJBAQznK1/CZwWHjdSF/yvt8f6SJWMz0QJdUVSFIuoW/SPnJ x2k/zCYlMpWEsBf7+d10DCPwmpN0XGDauQPsHZc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwIggpugYAqQFEHmOW7pDIXcIBOmC5C1Gb6edgp2TIU0WMh9GFQ/qk6T/aN/ZyXn2INnuGyUMe6UT/F0yGjyh8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:d9d:: with SMTP id bc29mr73239815vkb.14.1637363853469; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 15:17:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202111161754.1AGHsGsN929905@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <50F3E958-F0A4-4895-B1BC-41A2644A074A@oclsc.org> <20211118003512.GN15051@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20211118003512.GN15051@mcvoy.com> From: Alan Glasser Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 18:17:20 -0500 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000daac3d05d12c7a3f" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Book Recommendation [ reallly inscrutable languages ] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000daac3d05d12c7a3f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" My 2 cents on Perl. Having come up on Ken's original shell, the Mashey shell, the Bourne shell and the Korn shell (and now bash), and a happy awk (and nawk) programmer, I mostly avoided perl. But since many others didn't, I've found myself needing to read perl code, which as Larry stated "It wanted you to be pretty disciplined in how you wrote it or it becomes write only, but if you are, it was really pleasant." Unfortunately, most open source that I looked at felt to me like write only. Also, as Dave stated "The chief problem with Perl, as I see it, is it's like 10 languages smashed together. To write it, you only need to know one of the 10. But to read it, you never know what subset you're going to see until you're deep in the code." Not good for a peruser of perl code (me). And what's with the "special" or "magic" variables? Shades of IBM/OS; not at all Unix-like. >From 1996 until 2013 (when I retired) I was lucky enough to have a Perl aficionado on my team and he spared me much grief. Alan On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 7:39 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > I'll defend perl, at least perl4, vigorously. I wrote a lot of code in > it on 20mhz SPARCs. Yeah, like any kitchen sink language you have to > develop a style, but it is possible. All of Solaris 2.0 development > happened under a source management system I wrote, NSElite, that was > almost 100% perl4. There was one C program, that Marc might like, > that took 2 SCCS files that had the initial part of the graph in > common but the recent nodes were different in each file, and zippered > them together into a new SCCS file that had the newer nodes on a > branch. It was F.A.S.T compared to the edit/delta cycles you'd > do if you did it by hand. > > My perl4 was maintainable, I fixed bugs in it quickly. > > When it happened, perl4 was a God send, as much as I love awk, perl > was far more useful for stuff that awk just didn't want to handle. > > On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 09:21:49AM +1100, Rob Pike wrote: > > Perl certainly had its detractors, but for a few years there it was the > > lingua franca of system administration. > > > > -rob > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 8:21 AM Dan Cross wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 3:54 PM Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > >> On Wed, Nov 17, 2021, 1:48 PM Dan Stromberg > wrote: > > >> > > >>> On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 11:35 AM Norman Wilson > wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Wasn't Perl created to fill this void? > > >>>> > > >>>> Void? I thought Perl was created to fill a much-needed gap. > > >>>> > > >>> There was and is a need for something to sit between Shell and C. > But > > >>> it needn't be filled by Perl. > > >>> > > >>> The chief problem with Perl, as I see it, is it's like 10 languages > > >>> smashed together. To write it, you only need to know one of the > 10. But > > >>> to read it, you never know what subset you're going to see until > you're > > >>> deep in the code. > > >>> > > >>> Perl is the victim of an experiment in exuberant, Opensource design, > > >>> where the bar to adding a new feature was troublingly low. > > >>> > > >>> It was undeniably influential. > > >>> > > >> > > >> It's what paved the way for python to fill that gap... > > >> > > > > > > I feel that Perl, and to a lesser extent Tcl, opened the floodgates > for a > > > number of relatively lightweight "scripting" languages that sat > between C > > > and the shell in terms of their functionality and expressive power. > From > > > that group, the one I liked best was Ruby, but it got hijacked by > Rails and > > > Python swooped in and stole its thunder. > > > > > > - Dan C. > > > > > > > > -- > --- > Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm > --000000000000daac3d05d12c7a3f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My 2 cents on Perl.
Having come up on Ken's origina= l shell, the Mashey shell, the Bourne shell and the Korn shell (and now bas= h), and a happy awk (and nawk) programmer, I mostly avoided perl.=C2=A0 But= since many others didn't, I've found myself needing to read perl c= ode, which as Larry stated "It wanted you to be pretty disciplined in = how you wrote it or it becomes write only, but if you are, it was really pl= easant." =C2=A0Unfortunately, most open source that I looked at felt t= o me like write only.=C2=A0 Also, as Dave stated "The chief problem wi= th Perl, as I see it, is it's like 10 languages smashed together.=C2=A0= To write it, you only need to know one of the 10.=C2=A0 But to read it, yo= u never know what subset you're going to see until you're deep in t= he code." =C2=A0Not good for a peruser of perl code (me).=C2=A0 And wh= at's with the "special" or "magic" variables?=C2=A0= Shades of IBM/OS; not at all Unix-like.=C2=A0 From 1996 until 2013 (when I= retired) I was lucky enough to have a Perl aficionado on my team and he sp= ared me much grief.

Alan


On Wed, Nov 17, 20= 21 at 7:39 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com<= /a>> wrote:
I'll defend perl, at least per= l4, vigorously.=C2=A0 I wrote a lot of code in
it on 20mhz SPARCs.=C2=A0 Yeah, like any kitchen sink language you have to<= br> develop a style, but it is possible.=C2=A0 All of Solaris 2.0 development happened under a source management system I wrote, NSElite, that was
almost 100% perl4.=C2=A0 There was one C program, that Marc might like,
that took 2 SCCS files that had the initial part of the graph in
common but the recent nodes were different in each file, and zippered
them together into a new SCCS file that had the newer nodes on a
branch.=C2=A0 It was F.A.S.T compared to the edit/delta cycles you'd do if you did it by hand.

My perl4 was maintainable, I fixed bugs in it quickly.

When it happened, perl4 was a God send, as much as I love awk, perl
was far more useful for stuff that awk just didn't want to handle.

On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 09:21:49AM +1100, Rob Pike wrote:
> Perl certainly had its detractors, but for a few years there it was th= e
> lingua franca of system administration.
>
> -rob
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 8:21 AM Dan Cross <
crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 3:54 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, Nov 17, 2021, 1:48 PM Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> wro= te:
> >>
> >>> On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 11:35 AM Norman Wilson <norman@oclsc.org> wr= ote:
> >>>
> >>>> Wasn't Perl created to fill this void?
> >>>>
> >>>> Void? I thought Perl was created to fill a much-neede= d gap.
> >>>>
> >>> There was and is a need for something to sit between Shel= l and C.=C2=A0 But
> >>> it needn't be filled by Perl.
> >>>
> >>> The chief problem with Perl, as I see it, is it's lik= e 10 languages
> >>> smashed together.=C2=A0 To write it, you only need to kno= w one of the 10.=C2=A0 But
> >>> to read it, you never know what subset you're going t= o see until you're
> >>> deep in the code.
> >>>
> >>> Perl is the victim of an experiment in exuberant, Opensou= rce design,
> >>> where the bar to adding a new feature was troublingly low= .
> >>>
> >>> It was undeniably influential.
> >>>
> >>
> >> It's what paved the way for python to fill that gap... > >>
> >
> > I feel that Perl, and to a lesser extent Tcl, opened the floodgat= es for a
> > number of relatively lightweight "scripting" languages = that sat between C
> > and the shell in terms of their functionality and expressive powe= r. From
> > that group, the one I liked best was Ruby, but it got hijacked by= Rails and
> > Python swooped in and stole its thunder.
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Dan C.
> >
> >

--
---
Larry McVoy=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 l= m at mcvo= y.com=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://www.mcvoy.com= /lm
--000000000000daac3d05d12c7a3f--