From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 31598 invoked from network); 19 Nov 2021 20:07:32 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 19 Nov 2021 20:07:32 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D330693D62; Sat, 20 Nov 2021 06:07:29 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2AF193D60; Sat, 20 Nov 2021 06:04:53 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="PA0F49fC"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id C216D93D60; Sat, 20 Nov 2021 06:04:50 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-f43.google.com (mail-ua1-f43.google.com [209.85.222.43]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E56D593D5E for ; Sat, 20 Nov 2021 06:04:49 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-f43.google.com with SMTP id o1so23587022uap.4 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 12:04:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=sqxWhHIldPAwRZ1Vhdk2WapstsM0bScEyZFi599SrIE=; b=PA0F49fCnlgExfGMdFRA5A3K4IEPq7lSsgsrrgRh30zbD53a/lP+mCcp7+AZS+J0Og AFzzUG/WO2gdHOoJxoFiyk2GD0NwJ3aZ4wIB7iwaE22ODeMwfve8YepW9jNWr1MMyMuv kCeH7lwMCKU9o1F7ruuzM9G5S1UMb/GSrzRsLa+DksTSfXQbIasEE/jcDUISSOs3GmRN Bt8o0IkE845HIs9+tlqakbc6TgXqrQZ4BzB93Fo2MDKw1kCWwx1Q36F+AH5gpW1idfQk dRXyMrAtXZWfXzpTviT5cpKyAUNxBlaIEdFWYNFO4P/nfp0yItlNd/II0R4iCr2wyksB JduA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=sqxWhHIldPAwRZ1Vhdk2WapstsM0bScEyZFi599SrIE=; b=Iltw4rBy7ValVanxFHTeThI8s0ARZ/voT5RpfOr+mHnkGINcNx3cE5ccKDhTRe+3Vx SP4Pd6xpiqAr4WUliDrJw37QNZP7U/AIaFhTv+mqK8Okk8qeVqEBQVGj1UKUn1BgCpJ6 wE5dXhEolzzV0haOyQdGPQ3/beqGlaKTgZoeO6HyG7qyAEQoYvhnQFGF0VOiBlAT5rWe apdPMeoXvL30xu5lG/zqFGdO12UAISLCxj2xpdza4DIe9fu7JaETt2ic9tXe8PzYbnnS 3S4VM6M24E/dr+9XTVwU1AnAEdY1z9BQSbLlSrVTSQLDpwpCO59gw0QsUznoz5dPplIN yeFg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531kwPFavInCzRUvO2GRNprmAzgp3VXmlxhpnXejtTdsGU4tqd5h sZh6MWfa5f2BAQpK06eWtBPpnqE4ovunFC3dCd4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxMwiu4WyNrrvulQomGKJwpKJueGUBbBuQst97FObJbAq2nCRQqfmpxYtfILyx3MhMJdaNOV+q7Pjbaq/H+T58= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:3097:: with SMTP id h23mr54049145ual.107.1637352288472; Fri, 19 Nov 2021 12:04:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202111161754.1AGHsGsN929905@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <50F3E958-F0A4-4895-B1BC-41A2644A074A@oclsc.org> <20211118003512.GN15051@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20211118003512.GN15051@mcvoy.com> From: Alan Glasser Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 15:04:37 -0500 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000086d1b205d129c93d" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Book Recommendation [ reallly inscrutable languages ] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000086d1b205d129c93d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Larry, Did you ever try the -i or -x options on get(1) to include or exclude deltas? Alan On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 7:39 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > I'll defend perl, at least perl4, vigorously. I wrote a lot of code in > it on 20mhz SPARCs. Yeah, like any kitchen sink language you have to > develop a style, but it is possible. All of Solaris 2.0 development > happened under a source management system I wrote, NSElite, that was > almost 100% perl4. There was one C program, that Marc might like, > that took 2 SCCS files that had the initial part of the graph in > common but the recent nodes were different in each file, and zippered > them together into a new SCCS file that had the newer nodes on a > branch. It was F.A.S.T compared to the edit/delta cycles you'd > do if you did it by hand. > > My perl4 was maintainable, I fixed bugs in it quickly. > > When it happened, perl4 was a God send, as much as I love awk, perl > was far more useful for stuff that awk just didn't want to handle. > > On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 09:21:49AM +1100, Rob Pike wrote: > > Perl certainly had its detractors, but for a few years there it was the > > lingua franca of system administration. > > > > -rob > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 8:21 AM Dan Cross wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 3:54 PM Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > >> On Wed, Nov 17, 2021, 1:48 PM Dan Stromberg > wrote: > > >> > > >>> On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 11:35 AM Norman Wilson > wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Wasn't Perl created to fill this void? > > >>>> > > >>>> Void? I thought Perl was created to fill a much-needed gap. > > >>>> > > >>> There was and is a need for something to sit between Shell and C. > But > > >>> it needn't be filled by Perl. > > >>> > > >>> The chief problem with Perl, as I see it, is it's like 10 languages > > >>> smashed together. To write it, you only need to know one of the > 10. But > > >>> to read it, you never know what subset you're going to see until > you're > > >>> deep in the code. > > >>> > > >>> Perl is the victim of an experiment in exuberant, Opensource design, > > >>> where the bar to adding a new feature was troublingly low. > > >>> > > >>> It was undeniably influential. > > >>> > > >> > > >> It's what paved the way for python to fill that gap... > > >> > > > > > > I feel that Perl, and to a lesser extent Tcl, opened the floodgates > for a > > > number of relatively lightweight "scripting" languages that sat > between C > > > and the shell in terms of their functionality and expressive power. > From > > > that group, the one I liked best was Ruby, but it got hijacked by > Rails and > > > Python swooped in and stole its thunder. > > > > > > - Dan C. > > > > > > > > -- > --- > Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm > --00000000000086d1b205d129c93d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Larry,

Did you ever try the -i or -x options on get(1) to include or exclude delt= as?

Alan


On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 7:39 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
I'll defend perl, at least perl4, vigorously.=C2=A0 I= wrote a lot of code in
it on 20mhz SPARCs.=C2=A0 Yeah, like any kitchen sink language you have to<= br> develop a style, but it is possible.=C2=A0 All of Solaris 2.0 development happened under a source management system I wrote, NSElite, that was
almost 100% perl4.=C2=A0 There was one C program, that Marc might like,
that took 2 SCCS files that had the initial part of the graph in
common but the recent nodes were different in each file, and zippered
them together into a new SCCS file that had the newer nodes on a
branch.=C2=A0 It was F.A.S.T compared to the edit/delta cycles you'd do if you did it by hand.

My perl4 was maintainable, I fixed bugs in it quickly.

When it happened, perl4 was a God send, as much as I love awk, perl
was far more useful for stuff that awk just didn't want to handle.

On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 09:21:49AM +1100, Rob Pike wrote:
> Perl certainly had its detractors, but for a few years there it was th= e
> lingua franca of system administration.
>
> -rob
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 8:21 AM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 3:54 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, Nov 17, 2021, 1:48 PM Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> wro= te:
> >>
> >>> On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 11:35 AM Norman Wilson <norman@oclsc.org> wr= ote:
> >>>
> >>>> Wasn't Perl created to fill this void?
> >>>>
> >>>> Void? I thought Perl was created to fill a much-neede= d gap.
> >>>>
> >>> There was and is a need for something to sit between Shel= l and C.=C2=A0 But
> >>> it needn't be filled by Perl.
> >>>
> >>> The chief problem with Perl, as I see it, is it's lik= e 10 languages
> >>> smashed together.=C2=A0 To write it, you only need to kno= w one of the 10.=C2=A0 But
> >>> to read it, you never know what subset you're going t= o see until you're
> >>> deep in the code.
> >>>
> >>> Perl is the victim of an experiment in exuberant, Opensou= rce design,
> >>> where the bar to adding a new feature was troublingly low= .
> >>>
> >>> It was undeniably influential.
> >>>
> >>
> >> It's what paved the way for python to fill that gap... > >>
> >
> > I feel that Perl, and to a lesser extent Tcl, opened the floodgat= es for a
> > number of relatively lightweight "scripting" languages = that sat between C
> > and the shell in terms of their functionality and expressive powe= r. From
> > that group, the one I liked best was Ruby, but it got hijacked by= Rails and
> > Python swooped in and stole its thunder.
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Dan C.
> >
> >

--
---
Larry McVoy=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 l= m at mcvo= y.com=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://www.mcvoy.com= /lm
--00000000000086d1b205d129c93d--