From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 7671 invoked from network); 1 May 2022 14:06:24 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 1 May 2022 14:06:24 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id C66E59CF42; Mon, 2 May 2022 00:06:22 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43CA99CF0E; Mon, 2 May 2022 00:03:40 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="d95kKBNf"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id A51D39CF0E; Mon, 2 May 2022 00:03:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wr1-f51.google.com (mail-wr1-f51.google.com [209.85.221.51]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A493B9CF04 for ; Mon, 2 May 2022 00:03:36 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wr1-f51.google.com with SMTP id d5so16624494wrb.6 for ; Sun, 01 May 2022 07:03:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=j+Jsd48zgl7EBPxzg4Q9LHw8I9YpDrC2CdF3dfgFue8=; b=d95kKBNfTzQRolzYSl2UQ6B7r9x6LZ0/IpVOWMgXDutnEYz/dS4hE/jYKtJZaxb07H 5DkXzzuBICGHupv3CeBhJ+o90jHMrkBbipknptbM2CD9M/eFXvH0NgpHYfyfRzZibalM cWO16ySfy22bOhFb9ypJLa5XztbjjGtnx/Q/6BA230PW5LHIaNqKRIS9GsBeLNKcvktn gSDBXdcWnYWpZCt9MawQdSSj8bscmY1lZEpf7sz0zNN40SwdKQ6oKqTRgyzXn2P1mK7A 5k70FSOcsMBkLgo5UCJuyfsJwAxlfZFBLfzTKbaWKTcETw+lw/90iw1BakVqrFuO3OBe Ydpg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=j+Jsd48zgl7EBPxzg4Q9LHw8I9YpDrC2CdF3dfgFue8=; b=dt7Bw2azjya0hmQeUTHctKzRp5G6OIGovHaXdqxbK3pBKEwN6H8Ny8u6T4+YC40RmV PosUDMlfDG2rJd5NSTX/YRShUnS/vD0pOomvhs/TDcqU9riUxIXiUxAL5bNbBdsBz4l/ O5VSliwabCuwhne8I8vejNe/yb9ME7Jd3mMpGXS6XKftJN5MHx19OghReFN1kfH4JWzc sVB1yDfsD1yoTZx4QUr8q93EDM4ykGdedUvSmCOIsmMq3/cE/n2KI3VAkznX/RBNHKit baxaIgI99TY+X4YUDAH3yoAVrbKawQCqvM86HMAuPjNi31u3T9NqXoQ2a54l6Nad8ndW G8+w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531rfzhc//5oAx3x+8I8R4rfR536Jh7IrPJ3DO2PRTA7Z0pRM4N/ x9l23GHniZ/4Fl6B0d986JkYqEDG0J+yMfLB1gg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJycv/YE5je1w07qHmDlrPnaPb1XzFDW/v0q4GshuKTZLDWYRRsb6i1EtAswXvxGu1ROOisCg25M1KzPsKgNZqU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:1d94:b0:206:e3c:a118 with SMTP id bk20-20020a0560001d9400b002060e3ca118mr6303843wrb.452.1651413815102; Sun, 01 May 2022 07:03:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <57977CE7-DDCC-4861-BBD2-843B9B9F51C2@ronnatalie.com> In-Reply-To: From: Kenneth Goodwin Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 10:03:25 -0400 Message-ID: To: Rob Pike Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d3901405ddf3bd14" Subject: Re: [TUHS] First Unix-like OSes not derived from AT&T code? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000d3901405ddf3bd14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of the reasons that Mark Williams attracted the attention of AT&T lawyers was because they actually engaged former members of the Bell Labs UNIX research group who had prior access to ATT research source code to work on pieces of their system. THE BIG RED FLAG.... However, everyone at MW was painfully aware of the IP lawsuit potential in what they were doing. So they took great pains to avoid that occuring. I believe they could read the MAN page and any supporting documents, But they had to write everything from scratch. This is from a USENIX conference dialog with a mutual friend who passed through MW on his way west to fame and fortune. I believe a version of Coherent resides at Sourceforge in the operating systems archives. On Sun, May 1, 2022, 8:01 AM Rob Pike wrote: > The folks at Bell Labs were asked to figure out if Mark Williams had > copied Unix directly or via too much knowledge already obtained, or wheth= er > it was truly a clean room recreation. I don't remember all the details, b= ut > it became clear after a while that it was indeed a reasonably clean rewri= te. > > This was done by looking for corner cases that were an accident of the > original implementation and would be unlikely to appear in a version > created separately. One detail that did stick with me was the discovery > during this process that ppt, the paper tape simulator, mispunched a > letter, I think "R", but the Mark Williams version did not. Was that > compelling? Not on its own, but it was funny and memorable. > > -rob > > > On Sun, May 1, 2022 at 9:46 PM Ron Natalie wrote: > >> Mark Williams Coherent was one I worked with on the PC many years ago. >> >> > On May 1, 2022, at 11:34, Andrew Warkentin >> wrote: >> > >> > =EF=BB=BFWhat was the first "clone" functional Unix (i.e. an OS not de= rived >> > from genetic Unix code but highly compatible with genetic Unix)? Idris >> > is the earliest such OS of which I am aware (at least AFAIK it's not a >> > genetic Unix), but was it actually the first? Similarly, which was the >> > first "outer Unix-like" system (i.e. one with strong Unix influence >> > but significantly incompatible with functional Unix)? Off the top of >> > my head the earliest such system I can think of is Thoth (which >> > predates Idris by almost 2 years), but again I'm not sure if it was >> > actually the first. >> >> --000000000000d3901405ddf3bd14 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One of the reasons that Mark Williams attracted the atten= tion of AT&T lawyers was because they actually engaged former members o= f the Bell Labs UNIX research group
who had prior access t= o ATT research source code to work on pieces of their system.
THE BIG RED FLAG....
However, everyone at MW was painfully aware of the= IP lawsuit potential in what they were doing. So they took great pains to = avoid that occuring.

I b= elieve they could read the MAN page and any supporting documents, But they = had to write everything from scratch.

This is from a USENIX conference dialog with a mutual friend = who passed through MW on his way west to fame and fortune.

I believe a version of Coherent resides = at Sourceforge in the operating systems archives.

On Sun, May 1,= 2022, 8:01 AM Rob Pike <robpike@gm= ail.com> wrote:
The folks at Bell Labs were asked to figure out if Mark Williams had c= opied Unix directly or via too much knowledge already obtained, or whether = it was truly a clean room recreation. I don't remember all the details,= but it became clear after a while that it was indeed a reasonably clean re= write.

This was done by looking for corner cases that we= re an accident of the original implementation and would be unlikely to appe= ar in a version created separately. One detail that did stick with me was t= he discovery during this process that ppt, the paper tape simulator, mispun= ched a letter, I think "R", but the Mark Williams version did not= . Was that compelling? Not on its own, but it was funny and memorable.

-rob


On Sun, May 1, 2022 at 9:46 P= M Ron Natalie <ron@ronnatalie.com> wrote:
Mark Williams Coherent was one I worked= with on the PC many years ago.

> On May 1, 2022, at 11:34, Andrew Warkentin <andreww591@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB=BFWhat was the first "clone" functional Unix (i.e. an= OS not derived
> from genetic Unix code but highly compatible with genetic Unix)? Idris=
> is the earliest such OS of which I am aware (at least AFAIK it's n= ot a
> genetic Unix), but was it actually the first? Similarly, which was the=
> first "outer Unix-like" system (i.e. one with strong Unix in= fluence
> but significantly incompatible with functional Unix)? Off the top of > my head the earliest such system I can think of is Thoth (which
> predates Idris by almost 2 years), but again I'm not sure if it wa= s
> actually the first.

--000000000000d3901405ddf3bd14--