From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 11023 invoked from network); 13 Jul 2023 21:42:10 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 13 Jul 2023 21:42:10 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CA8242A6F; Fri, 14 Jul 2023 07:42:03 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wm1-x336.google.com (mail-wm1-x336.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::336]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5045F42A6E for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2023 07:41:50 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wm1-x336.google.com with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-3fbc12181b6so11931595e9.2 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2023 14:41:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1689284508; x=1691876508; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=ivhWk07YfxmzSQCys9ZjIIygFX/E8aNmQHUDRwKfDCU=; b=iM1iphSSbIYbLLi9FANVbsR4SSv4/8fFXiAC9ZEZmFUc+b9DrCR4YofTJ7L+CtEGAd KTK0LAssPtV3oJs2dvjo8DB12S2f+0nqalunfm13G3VoyYh84JSRgpYW8NLfTS3Dhldc 0zSiZQD86SumckTFj1vdmfvUp6TVjtWppA47A8YdZNrnADonnGrnuydk3mNfJNr9JMYk TYxKq5if2Nfk80ZCosLNDMv1eUXra4k4EJhPs5zbKXcGsRs+Ju+cHgazr5PlK+GYdesw 7UlUoCi+C/93aRIeGvCK13U0+ih68PbgOVAT9tx3/Z7lYJfAUhDRWFUE72uDnaNRJPxu giOg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1689284508; x=1691876508; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=ivhWk07YfxmzSQCys9ZjIIygFX/E8aNmQHUDRwKfDCU=; b=XRrZp7VL+b64McPUzwIGVzTgmGngZVfDLekaqbAbVPuY49DuJrhctlplxGaY/j9eGX Ht84Zdo3d/gJeHTIVNyt9Mh21cAKHrNxgxOtwg5oBAsQLeEMHF7MoKYXSV0JGr0+ZMXk v1Xef/HH6xRoVMRG78jhR+CxqjOUpsqX7oCrIsOPgIh6myLr8aOBd7pAPd3lBk28qXio rz6YomIBOloR+ckmw4bmoq6O3939bizch/jm8UyhiviYV5qpOnqv7JSk6WTResViKM0o w2jL3QthBNrtsyKPyfkVJjDvLE3Qt4b5DjWL8j+NbtpCE0W/icNzbR5t6WF35MsOd/8H zUDg== X-Gm-Message-State: ABy/qLYtiZZcR34qpsnmAakWs3D1vCU9I1Ue0a4BYTAVjAVZ61mtmZCp QXYr/PA0pqhqcqm7LAy8P5f6l9uWggXCDPFhw6E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APBJJlG2UZHykQzqz7nKlmtVy/1JQ0ZGOg0vNOuBYWFS7VtaYJHk2zZKcBPT+vmTgtj0hYDsFCcHnoMmFBuw/E94Uxs= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:2943:b0:3fc:2d2:caa8 with SMTP id n3-20020a05600c294300b003fc02d2caa8mr2558111wmd.29.1689284507293; Thu, 13 Jul 2023 14:41:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Kenneth Goodwin Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 17:41:36 -0400 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fb5b7b06006532f2" Message-ID-Hash: H23TX75P43G5J236KCAGFEK7UJW36OI4 X-Message-ID-Hash: H23TX75P43G5J236KCAGFEK7UJW36OI4 X-MailFrom: kennethgoodwin56@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: segaloco , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Bell COBOL Environment? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000fb5b7b06006532f2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Would your S database perhaps be Sybase?? It is that era of time. On Thu, Jul 13, 2023, 4:35 PM Clem Cole wrote: > Matt - I never had direct (user) experience with it. I saw a demo of > LPI's product at a trade show. It might have run on Ultrix, but if it di= d, > I have no memory of it being in the test suite we used for releases. Also= , > I do not remember if LPI-Colbol was attached to a specific DB > implementation or not. In those days, there were a number of them beside= s > Ingres - Informix, IBM's DB2, and one that started with an S - which late= r > was sold to Microsoft to become SQL-server to name a few, and that may ha= ve > been part of it. But there were bundled applications for different marke= ts > (running a dentist's office, car dealership, store, restaurant, *etc*..) > that ran on small UNIX boxes and used those DBs. > > What I remember was that only a few firms were offering Cobol for UNIX (I > think that IBM, DEC, DG, and maybe NCR had them from previous OSses), but > the new generation of UNIX boxes did not - although 3rd parties like LPI > sometimes offered them. Since it looks like AT&T is naming it/offering i= t > with their product, that is another example of AT&T management missing th= e > market. AT&T's management (Charlie Brown) was interested in going after > IBM and probably thought that Cobol was important if they sold to IBM sho= ps. > > The problem was that except for some really large 'Big Blue' places that > never bothered tossing out Cobol (like Wall Street and some insurance > companies --* i.e.* early IBM computer users), I always thought that > writing *new code in Cobol or trying to port old code *was not done that > often because the firms that were switching from Mainframes to UNIX were > generally tossing out their homegrown applications at the same time and > replacing the entire suite with something like SAP, BAAN, or Oracle > APS that were networked, well integrated into things like PCs, used ASCII= , > *etc*. - *i.e*. using the replacement as the time to really upgrade their > entire back office and possibly moving away from Big Blue based - which w= as > not cost-effective (particularly for smaller firms). Another point was > the Big 8 accounting firms started offering services that used the minis > and UNIX boxes with SAP/BAAN/Oracle APS). Finally, I may miss rememberin= g > WRT to LPR-Cobol, but it was similar to today's Java in that it compiled > into an interpreter. Plus, the impression I always had was that it was n= ot > designed for practical large-scale use or performance. > > BTW: this is a different behavior from the scientific world. From mini t= o > supercomputers, in most cases, scientific users could not toss out their > scientific computing tools and replace them with COTS alternatives (*i.e*= ., > no firm like SAP, BAAN or Oracle providing "packaged" solutions for a ban= k > or business). But since most of the production apps being used came with > sources or the few that were commercial (Cadum, CATIA, Ansys *etc*..), it > was possible to recompile and move things - so people did or the IVSs did= . > Even today, as one of my former colleagues put it, any sr computer system > manager that ignores Fortran will eventually get fired for incompetence a= s > it is still #1. > =E1=90=A7 > =E1=90=A7 > > On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 3:02=E2=80=AFPM segaloco via TUHS = wrote: > >> Reading through [1], there are documents offered by AT&T for the "Level >> II COBOL" system, which some further research indicates is a product fro= m >> Convergent (same folks as the UNIX PC.) There's also the LPI-COBOL whic= h >> appears to be a Language Processor Inc. product. >> >> Are these the earliest AT&T endorsed COBOL solutions for UNIX or were >> there other efforts either promoted by Bell or even perhaps developed >> locally that were in any use before this version? Or otherwise is there >> any other family of ubiquitous UNIX COBOL tools that was in use in the 7= 0s >> and early 80s, before the timeframe of this document? >> >> Additionally is anyone aware of any surviving code or binaries of either >> of these or other, earlier efforts at COBOL on UNIX? I have no goal for >> this information in mind yet, but just gathering details at this point. >> Thanks all! >> >> - Matt G. >> >> [1] - >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/att/000-111_ATT_Documentation_Guide_Nov87.pdf >> > --000000000000fb5b7b06006532f2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Would your S database perhaps be Sybase??

It is that era of time.

On Thu, Jul 13, = 2023, 4:35 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com<= /a>> wrote:
= Matt - I never had direct (user) experience=C2=A0with it.=C2=A0 I saw a dem= o of LPI's product at a trade show.=C2=A0 It might have run on Ultrix, = but if it did, I have no memory of it being in the test suite we used for r= eleases. Also, I do not remember if LPI-Colbol was attached to a specific D= B implementation or not.=C2=A0 In those days, there were a number of them b= esides Ingres - Informix, IBM's DB2, and one that started with an S - w= hich later was sold to Microsoft to become SQL-server to name a few, and th= at may have been part of it.=C2=A0 But there were bundled applications for = different markets (running a dentist's office, car dealership, store, r= estaurant, etc..) that ran on small UNIX boxes and used those DBs.

What I remember was that only a few firms were offering= Cobol for UNIX (I think that IBM, DEC, DG, and maybe NCR had them from pre= vious=C2=A0OSses), but the new generation of UNIX boxes did not - although = 3rd parties like LPI sometimes offered them.=C2=A0 Since it looks like AT&a= mp;T is naming it/offering it with their product, that is another example= =C2=A0of AT&T management missing the market.=C2=A0 AT&T's manag= ement (Charlie Brown) was interested in going after IBM and probably though= t that Cobol was important if they sold to IBM shops.

= The problem was that except for some really large 'Big Blue' places= that never bothered tossing out Cobol (like Wall Street and some insurance= companies -- i.e. early IBM computer users), I always thought that = writing new code in Cobol or trying to port old code was not = done that often because the firms that were switching from Mainframes to UN= IX were generally tossing out their homegrown applications at the same time= and replacing the entire suite with something like SAP, BAAN, or Oracle AP= S=C2=A0that were networked, well integrated into things like PCs, used ASCI= I, etc.=C2=A0- i.e. using the replacement as the time to real= ly upgrade their entire back office and possibly moving away from Big Blue = based - which was not cost-effective (particularly for smaller firms).=C2= =A0 =C2=A0Another point was the Big 8 accounting firms started offering ser= vices that=C2=A0used the minis and UNIX boxes with SAP/BAAN/Oracle APS).=C2= =A0 Finally, I may miss remembering WRT to LPR-Cobol, but it was similar to= today's Java in that it compiled into an interpreter.=C2=A0 Plus, the = impression I always had was that it was not designed for practical large-sc= ale use or performance.

BTW: this is a different behav= ior from the scientific world.=C2=A0 From mini to supercomputers, in most c= ases, scientific users could not toss out their scientific=C2=A0computing t= ools and replace them with COTS alternatives (i.e., no firm like SAP= , BAAN or Oracle providing "packaged" solutions for a bank or bus= iness). But since most of the=C2=A0production apps being used came with sou= rces or the few that were commercial (Cadum, CATIA, Ansys etc..), it= was possible to recompile and move things - so people did or the IVSs did.= =C2=A0 Even today, as one of my former colleagues=C2=A0put it, any sr compu= ter system manager that ignores Fortran will eventually get fired for incom= petence as it is still=C2=A0#1.=C2=A0=C2=A0
<= /div>
3D""=E1=90=A7

On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 3:02=E2=80=AFPM segaloco vi= a TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
Reading through [1], there are documents offered by AT&a= mp;T for the "Level II COBOL" system, which some further research= indicates is a product from Convergent (same folks as the UNIX PC.)=C2=A0 = There's also the LPI-COBOL which appears to be a Language Processor Inc= . product.

Are these the earliest AT&T endorsed COBOL solutions for UNIX or were t= here other efforts either promoted by Bell or even perhaps developed locall= y that were in any use before this version?=C2=A0 Or otherwise is there any= other family of ubiquitous UNIX COBOL tools that was in use in the 70s and= early 80s, before the timeframe of this document?

Additionally is anyone aware of any surviving code or binaries of either of= these or other, earlier efforts at COBOL on UNIX?=C2=A0 I have no goal for= this information in mind yet, but just gathering details at this point.=C2= =A0 Thanks all!

- Matt G.

[1] - http://bitsav= ers.org/pdf/att/000-111_ATT_Documentation_Guide_Nov87.pdf
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