From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 9516 invoked from network); 21 Sep 2023 15:53:40 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 21 Sep 2023 15:53:40 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AF16415D4; Fri, 22 Sep 2023 01:53:31 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wm1-x332.google.com (mail-wm1-x332.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::332]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19954415D1 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2023 01:53:25 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wm1-x332.google.com with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-40472c3faadso12298595e9.2 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2023 08:53:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1695311603; x=1695916403; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=FPcIhC+REda9NLo4enaM8l/1li0qmq7KAIGjt+4G8QI=; b=CETeDOmoKmXldgxVFqus3DhfEg0f98zipIe6ubVteQPZNRwZzDENzzNPsxhM+yc7cE o0GWaR3jPUgZfU1d5WyL8LzXbADULtUhKt3e5GpI/jpW2Fmk3xbO2J//CDXqm6zQM/uq c2yueZTHBYr25W/CfnyTwI/eH2JtyDWbAKwtKrLayPspt5eLE5nsyG0rysvxytRb6Lle j7Fikvs7yTwSgGdbQeH7KWYAGDKFH/utthlCWpiqzclpdp/Egq9eRoB8hpbH6XF5Rv+O l9M+hzrYjoQFxaGaUR+7qSIiEXn8rsjt1xAitIr5LO4WOMEDcPoEgdstipp/lJMXKX5+ eF0g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1695311603; x=1695916403; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=FPcIhC+REda9NLo4enaM8l/1li0qmq7KAIGjt+4G8QI=; b=OYhF4JWTwofUhvSwBO/1L2Yjl8ABqJN8bV3Tv1KsoYWAVR3rq0CmYdNyaFGy0sCl0V 6OybtK62FYZr3CEI0cZK3eDtZOob3g6Ek5FT27KS6NYf9dpOpnj9xjunfny1eln+de2r RYis0WvjdEE8YOFIGyttRnpUuEtl6wwdpbZAQfSsZ2Kn2la5m80PGFzBDb9wW1eIXd0O fuOks+mq358RJ7Y7QNrByKuWtW1r7ZEgcevE+YUaZBNH3V/77dWE/HjjbwciHO4knJkk iPuOZUcJLzRbXdogijIs+WiMd33ER65zNHVBK/j16uMvMZH5hUr0sczunSyZb9d85ocS 29Mg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwOdwcHPOxj5rOFp2OhNmVxZH1qm8Hi3zRqq3qu6vBDoG8BENbK KlQ4J3lDgjl/m+dVvwq924GRWLaMtz7wGhZX7PCB50PT X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEfpIF2aKme77kxGwI2eJ1/wV4kzU5NUMALnl2IMQz4NKJRmLutI+rO0rurzHESbsxK5HmYnzVBVpW7t4CX6R0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:2194:b0:402:fec4:fddc with SMTP id e20-20020a05600c219400b00402fec4fddcmr5731591wme.17.1695311602969; Thu, 21 Sep 2023 08:53:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4CmySC-mFud1dlrqfAq1itmNKoTWVi8cTuAqCvtUengKvv5CWEoYCFf6-I18dwf5BVSZWAxC-B6BP6Y1e0Gi_mlga344b5cxu5TlUCLXHeg=@protonmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4CmySC-mFud1dlrqfAq1itmNKoTWVi8cTuAqCvtUengKvv5CWEoYCFf6-I18dwf5BVSZWAxC-B6BP6Y1e0Gi_mlga344b5cxu5TlUCLXHeg=@protonmail.com> From: Kenneth Goodwin Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 11:53:11 -0400 Message-ID: To: segaloco Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e0f39f0605e07d00" Message-ID-Hash: WENSDNEIAX47SE3GT3R4QFLEM55HSGOG X-Message-ID-Hash: WENSDNEIAX47SE3GT3R4QFLEM55HSGOG X-MailFrom: kennethgoodwin56@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Project Idea: The UNIX Programmer's Manual: Heritage Edition List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000e0f39f0605e07d00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On the copyright issue My humble opinion is you would have less trouble with getting authorization if you do the following 1. Maintain all the original authorship/copyright information for the documents. 2. Charge no more than cost plus shipping so it is nonprofit 3. Optionally add an uptick charge to the costs for charitable contributions and send those donations to a charity of your/group choice. I would recommend picking one or more of the computer museums to use as the charity. The donations therefore going to support the preservation of the history of computing worldwide. This should be something of collective interest that most people and authors/copyright holders could support and endorse. On Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 4:32 PM segaloco via TUHS wrote: > I haven't known when or how to bring up this project idea, but figure I > might as well start putting feelers out since my Dragon Quest project is > starting to slow down and I might focus back on UNIX manual stuff. > > So something painfully missing from my and I'm sure plenty of other folks' > libraries is a nice, modern paper UNIX manual that takes the past few > decades into consideration. The GNU project, BSDs, etc. ship manpages of > course, and there's the POSIX manpages, but I'm a sucker for a good print > manual. Something I'm thinking of producing as a "deliverable" of sorts > from my documentation research is a new-age UNIX manual, derived as closely > as possible from the formal UNIX documentation lineages (so Research, SysV, > and BSD pages), but: > > 1. Including subsequent POSIX requirements > 2. Including an informational section in each page with a little > history and some notes about current implementations, if applicable. This > would include notes about "dead on the vine" stuff like things plucked from > the CB-UNIX, MERT/PG, and PWB lines. The history part could even be a > separate book, that way the manual itself could stay tight and focused. > This would also be a good place for luminaries to provide reflections on > their involvement in given pieces. > > One of the main questions that I have in mind is what the legal landscape > of producing such a thing would entail. At the very least, to actually > call it a UNIX Programmer's Manual, it would probably need to pass some > sort of compliance with the materials The Open Group publishes. That said, > the ownership of the IP as opposed to the trademarks is a little less > certain, so I would be a bit curious who all would be involved in > specifically getting copyright approval to publish anything that happened > the commercial line after the early 80s, so like new text produced after > 1982. I presume anything covered by the Caldera license at least could be > published at-cost, but not for a profit (which I'm not looking for anyway.) > > Additionally, if possible, I'd love to run down some authorship > information and make sure folks who wrote stuff up over time are properly > credited, if not on each page ala OWNER at least in a Acknowledgements > section in the front. > > As far as production, I personally would want to do a run with a couple of > different cover styles, comb bound, maybe one echoing the original Bell > Laboratories UNIX User's Manual-style cover complete with Bell logo, > another using the original USENIX Beastie cover, etc. but that also then > calls into question more copyrights to coordinate, especially with the way > the Bell logo is currently owned, that could get complicated. > > Anywho, anyone know of any such efforts like this? If I actually got such > a project going in earnest, would folks find themselves interested in such > a publication? In any case I do intend to start on a typesetter sources > version of this project sometime in the next year or so, but ideally I > would want it to blossom into something that could result in some physical > media. This idea isn't even half-baked yet by the way, so just know I > don't have a roadmap in place, it's just something I see being a cool > potential project over the coming years. > > - Matt G. > --000000000000e0f39f0605e07d00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On the copyright issue=C2=A0

<= div dir=3D"auto">My humble opinion is you would have less trouble with gett= ing authorization if you do the following

=
1. Maintain all the original authorship/copyright informa= tion for the documents.

= 2. Charge no more than cost plus shipping so it is nonprofit

3. Optionally add an uptick charge to= the costs for charitable contributions and send those donations to a chari= ty of your/group choice.
I would recommend picking o= ne or more of the computer museums to use as the charity.
The donations therefore going to support the preservation of the hist= ory of computing worldwide. This should be something of collective interest= that most people and authors/copyright holders could support and endorse.<= /div>

On Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 4:32 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
I haven't known when or how to bring up this project idea, but= figure I might as well start putting feelers out since my Dragon Quest pro= ject is starting to slow down and I might focus back on UNIX manual stuff.<= br>
So something painfully missing from my and I'm sure plenty of other fol= ks' libraries is a nice, modern paper UNIX manual that takes the past f= ew decades into consideration.=C2=A0 The GNU project, BSDs, etc. ship manpa= ges of course, and there's the POSIX manpages, but I'm a sucker for= a good print manual.=C2=A0 Something I'm thinking of producing as a &q= uot;deliverable" of sorts from my documentation research is a new-age = UNIX manual, derived as closely as possible from the formal UNIX documentat= ion lineages (so Research, SysV, and BSD pages), but:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1. Including subsequent POSIX requirements
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2. Including an informational section in each page with a lit= tle history and some notes about current implementations, if applicable.=C2= =A0 This would include notes about "dead on the vine" stuff like = things plucked from the CB-UNIX, MERT/PG, and PWB lines.=C2=A0 The history = part could even be a separate book, that way the manual itself could stay t= ight and focused.=C2=A0 This would also be a good place for luminaries to p= rovide reflections on their involvement in given pieces.

One of the main questions that I have in mind is what the legal landscape o= f producing such a thing would entail.=C2=A0 At the very least, to actually= call it a UNIX Programmer's Manual, it would probably need to pass som= e sort of compliance with the materials The Open Group publishes.=C2=A0 Tha= t said, the ownership of the IP as opposed to the trademarks is a little le= ss certain, so I would be a bit curious who all would be involved in specif= ically getting copyright approval to publish anything that happened the com= mercial line after the early 80s, so like new text produced after 1982.=C2= =A0 I presume anything covered by the Caldera license at least could be pub= lished at-cost, but not for a profit (which I'm not looking for anyway.= )

Additionally, if possible, I'd love to run down some authorship informa= tion and make sure folks who wrote stuff up over time are properly credited= , if not on each page ala OWNER at least in a Acknowledgements section in t= he front.

As far as production, I personally would want to do a run with a couple of = different cover styles, comb bound, maybe one echoing the original Bell Lab= oratories UNIX User's Manual-style cover complete with Bell logo, anoth= er using the original USENIX Beastie cover, etc. but that also then calls i= nto question more copyrights to coordinate, especially with the way the Bel= l logo is currently owned, that could get complicated.

Anywho, anyone know of any such efforts like this?=C2=A0 If I actually got = such a project going in earnest, would folks find themselves interested in = such a publication?=C2=A0 In any case I do intend to start on a typesetter = sources version of this project sometime in the next year or so, but ideall= y I would want it to blossom into something that could result in some physi= cal media.=C2=A0 This idea isn't even half-baked yet by the way, so jus= t know I don't have a roadmap in place, it's just something I see b= eing a cool potential project over the coming years.

- Matt G.
--000000000000e0f39f0605e07d00--