From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 17003 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2022 03:30:42 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 2 Jan 2022 03:30:42 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 331419D00A; Sun, 2 Jan 2022 13:30:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E4939CFA8; Sun, 2 Jan 2022 13:30:20 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.i=@bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.b="VbnbF88l"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 3E39F9CF06; Sun, 2 Jan 2022 13:30:17 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-f46.google.com (mail-ua1-f46.google.com [209.85.222.46]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 449209CE58 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2022 13:30:16 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-f46.google.com with SMTP id v12so40762646uar.7 for ; Sat, 01 Jan 2022 19:30:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9thkDCHglUVFaiEcKNzHv8ACxZl4GFa18YfrkxIhqOw=; b=VbnbF88lrvX7LKVLhZCzcSh5r1mzuPJszP20y5wtvujITmFD0hpcQzzTOmBtuJ7Tkz xspzVl7wYarit2agb2zJdx7A6uyb3rq6U4nS+xw76b2EXWmuUOHdPQUU8i70cnn8j6lI 5u5t1BcfvcOhdsfX5NMWhXQl5lD1+luh+6X5TN6lZ5abYgay9FCJ7OJTNUFDij99fEQQ lqk3MZj4Ts8FybFjQ7H2c9LP9p0exAYiF/A/Yz5Wm90TTCUcPZKzbMwk79t7gghoj9sb ZIZzNXe+lQA1c/rqeUXrz+j2AWnFeM6rutknSCRKF0QeMbQgk6bFOM33J68fJ63kUflT vkQQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9thkDCHglUVFaiEcKNzHv8ACxZl4GFa18YfrkxIhqOw=; b=6V+pUUkSf9zpIzD5YTgIyMnRxoYFfZOMiFYGlbMwiVZSmarOUw2XGKWs427UYpR+35 JZ3p3QEuKIjk2tS28RzQDNfaLYy+cp6d9T+OUknjPMc13/zB8GFIG8A5+DoKlH7fMdpo N0kv4HOoHYTers6yhPZcS9KZg3co1pC4BFC2wSm7FBGDHVgbMa1l5SxMTNieHp8oD1EH VGFnEYhtpHfw6ahoRM96yyupzR5l6bB/Jfq1NczetEYt5vCDzFEW+3I54hOwmjVepH81 KdEvK9/Sxlotb8sdrRAPdEfbVLSy1CNE4nh7ANLTXGWVebyktc3sB+RAYKuiH4sWVMFn VZDw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530KIk4W85CUUHcQo1iAtX9bN8nkLqIM8cUpiHZrVxrQN4MtLA7x IjLylkIi88LqVOB0m3eVqUqaepmDHFedyf10rRa3zw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxSziKaYQtT/bCitdZ/hU1UDxQGlmvEjXsPSHvR1VCnOg2PNOLW5DB6veCvMyho8gkhkbu059/7TomvZe0YZdc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:da:: with SMTP id u26mr12436338vsp.42.1641094215117; Sat, 01 Jan 2022 19:30:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20211231234039.GU31637@mcvoy.com> <202201012000.201K0Fd31610896@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20220102001244.GF10078@mcvoy.com> <20220102012033.GB7055@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 20:30:05 -0700 Message-ID: To: John Cowan Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bc3daf05d491050f" Subject: Re: [TUHS] roff(7) [ and other related stuff ] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000bc3daf05d491050f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Jan 1, 2022, 8:05 PM John Cowan wrote: > > > On Sat, Jan 1, 2022 at 8:20 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > > >> I'm almost speechless. My progression was Basic, Pascal, C (and later >> Fortran, Lisp, no Cobol, I did an Ada Compiler so Ada I guess). Then >> on to awk, perl, tcl, I tried to like C++ but couldn't, tried to like >> Rust, Go, D, and couldn't. >> >> If you think any of those other languages remotely approach the elegance >> of C, I just don't know what to say. >> > > Elegance? C? I think not. Lisp, _that's_ elegant. > LISP is all about the syntax. It was completely opaque until that moment when prefix notation clicked and it was all clear... C is beautiful, you look at the code and you can see what the hardware >> will be doing but it isn't assembler. > > > Not really. You see what the hardware would be doing if it were a PDP-11. > That's not the same thing at all. > Read the CHERI papers to find out that C is just doing approximately what you want / think is going on... unless you've been burned by UB that you thought you knew... At least compilers are getting stricter about flagging it, much to the annoyance of anybody with a code base more than a couple years old... Warner > --000000000000bc3daf05d491050f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Jan 1, 2022, 8:05 PM John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:


On Sat, Jan 1, 2022 at 8:20 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
<= /div>
=C2=A0
I&#= 39;m almost speechless.=C2=A0 My progression was Basic, Pascal, C (and late= r
Fortran, Lisp, no Cobol, I did an Ada Compiler so Ada I guess).=C2=A0 Then<= br> on to awk, perl, tcl, I tried to like C++ but couldn't, tried to like Rust, Go, D, and couldn't.=C2=A0

If you think any of those other languages remotely approach the elegance of C, I just don't know what to say.

Elegance?=C2=A0 C?=C2=A0 I think not.=C2=A0 Lisp, _t= hat's_ elegant.

LISP is all about the syntax. It was compl= etely opaque until that moment when prefix notation clicked and it was all = clear...

C is beautifu= l, you look at the code and you can see what the hardware
will be doing but it isn't assembler.=C2=A0

=
Not really. You see what the hardware would be do= ing if it were a PDP-11.=C2=A0 That's not the same thing=C2=A0at=C2=A0a= ll.

<= div dir=3D"auto">Read the CHERI papers to find out that C is just doing app= roximately what you want / think is going on... unless you've been burn= ed by UB that you thought you knew... At least compilers are getting strict= er about flagging it, much to the annoyance of anybody with a code base mor= e than a couple years old...

Warner
--000000000000bc3daf05d491050f--