From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 16788 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2023 20:47:15 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 22 Feb 2023 20:47:15 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19E8B4223A; Thu, 23 Feb 2023 06:47:11 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ed1-x52f.google.com (mail-ed1-x52f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52f]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10FC542239 for ; Thu, 23 Feb 2023 06:47:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ed1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id f13so35080729edz.6 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 2023 12:47:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=ZtJ6xysCj8lFAiDh0QpeGjYflwJQR6u5KIgvIpPTe3A=; b=DbHgkB9PFOFIKqVOOA/r5DaFgpV+GX9gWqZq9XEZkfvBApIfJDhTf/LJXp/llGevOk /gD6HU4obIg+aMThnu8M6E9gRv7UJ7g3CBcFwQY7VUWfQ+nHGsc2+V8uqv82hpswk08K 79RmcOSoSKnKhYoVlo9B9oNK9d50B+W5ytP6+psQEJqKxBg/EcN7fMs4eG7z8YMtVksu 3HpRkiuOPwE8UNgU8TAO2gnU2QtrFkxGty2IVR7gAA5pbqnNe9p4eX5JQdWL+hBdzMkT 5y74LE4oi3xmtExj71pfCWPmj5S++/3OoPD/DG1N7UOe2jEmJ8W8lR3apJZlbLtUPxyR nitQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=ZtJ6xysCj8lFAiDh0QpeGjYflwJQR6u5KIgvIpPTe3A=; b=aXqnT19zjCfrNotjmLMDNcvpYg2/xbE8O3lPITvzhJvn+vb5hqjblTrjka7Ny/8GTZ PojCfXbvAWjukYAEI8ee3F9jRMG5eBtqnRIxmpEWR2IVn4bdqULN5AtH9YailofZ7XNq mFdm4+H7vdImOa8rrKxvlf0BJEdQXUAyVmnCrg+5mL49KOCyfaYfyOhgUKQttxg9fyQj /sDd6SHX/3Q2gHwFO+UYD/BrANxkBczt9Ziim7qOGgr/93UrH9NklikCIy6M7rZ1EyAi CIG29DvBNYA3izN2ZEgB7LvW3TUcpNAKz6er+WxFSHuTrVsq3DZbBVTdaxtsuiLa+yiv 2+/g== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKX0esj3PM8PrlQg5ngpX/oTL9CP/dMfiS8AEKar72TAHesBU14U DmMudo4w44WXtTPyGkyLcDRyIfHlLsA7E0EA0QUJGQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set/yyTiUDrnzYhvbAUat/u2Iuhqy/FBsNugb0iktIILw1YLWH3weE9W/UgFaTupvddJbEwEnmIYlXyGPIt7ghiY= X-Received: by 2002:a50:8a92:0:b0:4ae:e606:432f with SMTP id j18-20020a508a92000000b004aee606432fmr5561580edj.0.1677098823043; Wed, 22 Feb 2023 12:47:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230222201233.GY7194@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20230222201233.GY7194@mcvoy.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 13:46:53 -0700 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000099e39d05f54fff0e" Message-ID-Hash: 2SAM7U223OS67J6AEVIVIWFC4XYAANEU X-Message-ID-Hash: 2SAM7U223OS67J6AEVIVIWFC4XYAANEU X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: TUHS X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Open sourcing SunOS? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000099e39d05f54fff0e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 1:12 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 01:04:37PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 22, 2023, 8:50 AM Dan Cross wrote: > > > > > Has anyone tried talking to anyone at Oracle about possibly getting > > > the SunOS code released under an open source license? There can't be > > > any commercial value left in it. > > > > > > > SunOS 4 has a lot of encumbered code in it, especially for i386 drivers. > > There is SunOS as in everything shipped, kernel and userspace, and there > is the kernel. So far as I remember, the i386 stuff was never integrated > into the source tree that Sun shipped from. There was the roadrunner > stuff but I don't think that ever made it in to the official tree. If > it did, nobody paid attention to it. All people cared about at the > time as SPARC and I don't think there was any outsourced hacking for > SPARC, that was all in house. > I know there's i386 source kits for the Roadrunner, and that's really the only thing that SunOS ever supported, at least that was sold. I'd been told that it had been poorly integrated by people that had worked on it here in Boulder, so I believe that. In the 4.1.3 sources there's a number of i386 ifdefs, and at least a math library for i386. But no kernel bits, except for a bunch of ifdefs for i386 that I've not looked at closely. Maybe this is what is meant by 'poorly integrated' :) > The networking stack in SunOS 4.x was BSD derived. You might be thinking > of Solaris, that took the Lachman STREAMS stack but that was 5.x, not > 4.x. > I was thinking of the streams stuff that's in 4.x BSD. There's AT&T copyrights on it. There's also, strangely, rfs sources included with some of the stuff one can find online. But it looks to be imported nearly verbatim from System V of some flavor with very few edits, judging by the 1.1 versions in many of the files. > As the only guy, that I'm aware of, who took all the encumbered stuff > out of the kernel, put back the BSD tty drivers and a few other small > things that resulted in a kernel that we could freely open source, > I beg to differ with: > > > Bits of the > > network stack as well. It was hopeless to try to open source. There was a > > lot of bits > > and pieces that Sun had done with contracts that were, at best, ambiguous > > for > > what to do should they want to open source it. > I'm just reporting what my VP told me... Grepping through the source I can find online, the evidence is closer to what you say than what Glen told me. Either he or I must have confused Solaris 2 with SunOS 4. Warner --00000000000099e39d05f54fff0e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 1:12 PM Larry= McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
<= /div>
On Wed, Feb 22, 2023= at 01:04:37PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2023, 8:50 AM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Has anyone tried talking to anyone at Oracle about possibly getti= ng
> > the SunOS code released under an open source license? There can&#= 39;t be
> > any commercial value left in it.
> >
>
> SunOS 4 has a lot of encumbered code in it, especially for i386 driver= s.

There is SunOS as in everything shipped, kernel and userspace, and there is the kernel.=C2=A0 So far as I remember, the i386 stuff was never integra= ted
into the source tree that Sun shipped from.=C2=A0 There was the roadrunner<= br> stuff but I don't think that ever made it in to the official tree.=C2= =A0 If
it did, nobody paid attention to it.=C2=A0 All people cared about at the time as SPARC and I don't think there was any outsourced hacking for SPARC, that was all in house.

I know th= ere's i386 source kits for the Roadrunner, and that's really the
only thing that SunOS ever supported, at least that was sold. I'= ;d been told
that it had been poorly integrated by people that ha= d worked on it here in
Boulder, so I believe that.

=
In the 4.1.3 sources there's a number of i386 ifdefs, and at= least a math library
for i386. But no kernel bits, except for a = bunch of ifdefs for i386 that I've not
looked at closely. May= be this is what is meant by 'poorly integrated' :)
= =C2=A0
The networking stack in SunOS 4.x was BSD derived.=C2=A0 You might be think= ing
of Solaris, that took the Lachman STREAMS stack but that was 5.x, not
4.x.

I was thinking of the streams stuf= f that's in 4.x BSD. There's AT&T copyrights
on it. T= here's also, strangely, rfs sources included with some of the stuff one=
can find online. But it looks to be imported nearly verbatim fro= m System V
of some flavor with very few edits, judging by the 1.1= versions in many of the
files.
=C2=A0
As the only guy, that I'm aware of, who took all the encumbered stuff out of the kernel, put back the BSD tty drivers and a few other small
things that resulted in a kernel that we could freely open source,
I beg to differ with:

> Bits of the
> network stack as well. It was hopeless to try to open source. There wa= s a
> lot of bits
> and pieces that Sun had done with contracts that were, at best, ambigu= ous
> for
> what to do should they want to open source it.
<= br>
I'm just reporting what my VP told me...=C2=A0 Grepping t= hrough the source I can
find online, the evidence is closer to wh= at you say than what Glen told me.
Either he or I must have confu= sed Solaris 2 with SunOS 4.

Warner
=
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