From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 14411 invoked from network); 13 Mar 2023 15:30:25 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 13 Mar 2023 15:30:25 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8D84411EA; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 01:30:20 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ed1-x52b.google.com (mail-ed1-x52b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52b]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4ED3B411E5 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 01:30:16 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ed1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id cy23so50194152edb.12 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:30:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; t=1678721414; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=kR0za56mc/fmIaBf5hFsYc2F0rgE0Ln01c6VX3RnBAk=; b=hx2qQIw/Kk49u8smvVqqPYN+dtQ95aJDqfKtl9eRZW3xpsWYKsxtZZm+l6kTBGyt2U kRtB6gQRBaPUz9AN3hk1Z2phV1AsZ/KwU3rMpldxB7Sb6WPkKF2Uxccjll3zO5oW042C w4LUVqqp8VuDmDp3RYxUBy4BmSWkEey7kBHOfqhw7jcMIn5NH9Jea2x+5xCvepKtHMfJ voz2l+p1XJ0JLMF11VXJ+ypUDTktPhhfHgKCsUgZ+Y1GBHkxcZ7ev36T31Z7h1HBALn5 wMbfRQYvRwNvNypL/987uF4rbPGE2pMkUzd4jdqS02BRP6Sxsrybunz/FumQBGIhVuK0 fCUQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678721414; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=kR0za56mc/fmIaBf5hFsYc2F0rgE0Ln01c6VX3RnBAk=; b=ScMiJolGhBo+7Uoh3tSAnq0gVNvHiCtZtgvsNpuT2ROPMPk0pbdsoXOwbNJ3SSBNXc FV4qIoWjjM5GnriLf/AFcWgJyCm2cmTZKgEcwc3n5bpSsjD8sT2NwskanuQGak4DLsR/ nx6baCNt9FvUzxWyiVTBWI15eeTN7+ls7bztvCGNXLQ9Ke3VV7U7nJXREy/Jej0P1eRx gv4Ratb3mQWGDTUUyef+WVYX8td4iEgulw43vtzVxouOg2MraAaQQBHd8T3eoleafgsM zCUR+NA2VXnknpD8fNLSZ7LcTZHTdhXM4b/ozhgbTnJYkDgPdRevXYpvQKdOPePWkS0X RcJA== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKUGVcyla1WbhvTsXK3J7V/ATIGR0kRFFlR3Kyu3or6p398pX+Vr iacnr3VWz1iRHPm/MH4vgOVq+EF9nb/6loQRTleQJckId9Pk7bbHTuE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set8vnVfkhUoeCOGNztwNnNCseuHRt2J+dQxmS9wTT7B3QU91pD0y+66v3iq1YxstaE04MpjfA5dS+xbyKRky+YY= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:64d:b0:8d1:57cf:ef3c with SMTP id t13-20020a170906064d00b008d157cfef3cmr16962610ejb.2.1678721414439; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:30:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <78FE1F5F-7408-4BB0-8D2E-62AA00465774@planet.nl> In-Reply-To: <78FE1F5F-7408-4BB0-8D2E-62AA00465774@planet.nl> From: Warner Losh Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 09:30:03 -0600 Message-ID: To: Paul Ruizendaal Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000095b65405f6c9c996" Message-ID-Hash: ROS5F4PDBRHZKNIOLZ6O27A4AT27QJCJ X-Message-ID-Hash: ROS5F4PDBRHZKNIOLZ6O27A4AT27QJCJ X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: virtual consoles / Alt-Fx List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000095b65405f6c9c996 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 9:13=E2=80=AFAM Paul Ruizendaal via TUHS wrote: > Thinking a bit more about terminal multiplexing was a major use case for > early X, I recalled using Linux virtual consoles in the late 90=E2=80=99s= for this > purpose. > > According to Wikipedia, virtual consoles originated with Xenix and before > that with concurrent CP/M. > > Perusing the documentation of those on Bitsavers, I can see that virtual > consoles have a prominent mention in the manual for concurrent CP/M (1983= ), > but not those of its forerunners MP/M II and MP/M (1979). I cannot find a > mention of virtual consoles in Xenix documentation as late as 1988. > Venix/86R 1.0 Boston Softwre Works Edition had virtual consoles. It was released in 1986. https://groups.google.com/g/mod.newprod/c/iYLc3cdnyms/m/Him5XgqwT70J is a reference. However, it was inspired by Xenix and Microport System V/AT according to the author. The stock version of Venix/86R 1.0 didn't have them, nor did the PC version that we have some sources for. Here's the relevant bits from the blurb: Virtual consoles, as found in VENIX on IBM-compatible machines, and also in XENIX and Microport System V/AT. But also interesting was: Support for simultaneous use of a monochrome display (for terminal/console use) and a color graphics display (for graphics). which I thought interesting at the time, but was pretty old-school Unix Workstation by then. No such thing as a virtual (as distinct from pseudo) tty on 16-bit Unix or > early 32-bit, as far as I know; one could argue it does not make much sen= se > with physical terminals. Wikipedia says no such thing existed on SunOS > either. > > I think virtual consoles where present in Linux from a very early point. > Ditto for the 386BSD BSD/386 line of code. I think they were added in the patch-kit phase, not the original Jolitz code phase. FreeBSD 1.0 Beta had them in 1993 for sure, as did NetBSD of the time. I have a memory of them on 0.98pl13 on Linux as well, but that version sticks in my head as a proxy for anything between 0.96 (the first one I tried) and 0.99 (the last before 1.x Linux). This would be approximately 1992 or 1993. I've not done the deep-dive into the ancient code bases to see if I can suss out when they arrived. > So, as far as I can tell virtual consoles were invented for concurrent > CP/M around 1983, made their way to Xenix in the late 80=E2=80=99s and be= came part > of Linux in the early 90=E2=80=99s. > > Have I missed other prior art? > Maybe a little. Good information about Microport System V is kinda hard to come by these days... Warner --00000000000095b65405f6c9c996 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 9:13=E2=80=AF= AM Paul Ruizendaal via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.= org> wrote:
Thinking a bit more about terminal multiplexing was a major use case for= early X, I recalled using Linux virtual consoles in the late 90=E2=80=99s = for this purpose.

According to Wikipedia, virtual consoles originated with Xenix and before t= hat with concurrent CP/M.

Perusing the documentation of those on Bitsavers, I can see that virtual co= nsoles have a prominent mention in the manual for concurrent CP/M (1983), b= ut not those of its forerunners MP/M II and MP/M (1979). I cannot find a me= ntion of virtual consoles in Xenix documentation as late as 1988.

Venix/86R 1.0 Boston Softwre=C2=A0Works Edition = had virtual consoles. It was released in 1986.=C2=A0https://groups.go= ogle.com/g/mod.newprod/c/iYLc3cdnyms/m/Him5XgqwT70J is a reference. How= ever, it was inspired by Xenix and Microport System V/AT according to the a= uthor. The stock version of Venix/86R 1.0 didn't have them, nor did the= PC version that we have some sources for. Here's the relevant bits fro= m the blurb:

Virtua= l consoles, as found in VENIX on IBM-compatible machines, and also in XENIX= and Microport System V/AT.

But also intere= sting was:

Support = for simultaneous use of a monochrome display (for terminal/console use) and= a color graphics display (for graphics).
=C2=A0
which I thought interesting at the time, but was pretty old-school Unix Wo= rkstation by then.

No such thing as a virtual (as distinct from pseudo) tty on 16-bit Unix or = early 32-bit, as far as I know; one could argue it does not make much sense= with physical terminals. Wikipedia says no such thing existed on SunOS eit= her.

I think virtual consoles where present in Linux from a very early point.

Ditto for the 386BSD BSD/386 line of=C2= =A0 code. I think they were added in the patch-kit phase, not the original = Jolitz code phase. FreeBSD 1.0 Beta had them in 1993 for sure, as did NetBS= D of the time.

I have a memory of them on 0.98pl13= on Linux as well, but that version sticks in my head as a proxy for anythi= ng between 0.96 (the first one I tried) and 0.99 (the last before 1.x Linux= ). This would be approximately 1992 or 1993.

I'= ;ve not done the deep-dive into the ancient code bases to see if I can suss= out when they arrived.
=C2=A0
So, as far as I can tell virtual consoles were invented for concurrent CP/M= around 1983, made their way to Xenix in the late 80=E2=80=99s and became p= art of Linux in the early 90=E2=80=99s.

Have I missed other prior art?

Maybe a = little. Good information about Microport System V is kinda hard to come by = these days...

Warner
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