From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 23732 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2023 03:45:30 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 26 Feb 2023 03:45:30 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DEED4328F; Sun, 26 Feb 2023 13:45:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ed1-x529.google.com (mail-ed1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::529]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2423D4328E for ; Sun, 26 Feb 2023 13:45:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ed1-x529.google.com with SMTP id o12so12694450edb.9 for ; Sat, 25 Feb 2023 19:45:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=OX3iJrtCRLUAlhOukLiR+zDp1max0uG95GJHtN/6sPM=; b=uJ6z+DbbTjOX2ieV+N+v2IJVVRecBQ20vs2H6LOqBcMXHzG+6TG3MppcKdNrNgv4xm KZ3r4DzgWox5/mDAqgLG0rygnWaUfkcGxtJiIWOavzNS0xV1VVR1xBw+5INZpDwZ4Hi6 Ikuj8RQuP4zQE2Ke+T9wbtnEFwSfgK5aIy0lWtximLC3XvK1cAOUNyvonyoiQrBhQxTg nowsYe4t/fijg6/RW/RmuxcYmaRsXPZKXzqBAT1OjRMeHChpTITNrtWD/Kxo7X6FJcuX iEfboXZRKSzgTA6mr96cNugHQUXF6dfikxlxxg/yarBfxtE8WGcuK8D7zdGS3kP+ZaSH wMfQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=OX3iJrtCRLUAlhOukLiR+zDp1max0uG95GJHtN/6sPM=; b=cmegruVizqcAIC1WTQhk/LVY6UfEkXJrBVQhXq614NYvrmXIqMUovLz+K7hoUmtEch dCMh0XEDGaD4YXKcH/ZdOIxX2FxO02tvZwSv9K+PC69MmxVk0HDISkDoUQzlUIs6CZS1 sXRsVvjPNelmq5J2kgclySXly5xRxfFYZRjmYS8EsZ/7feSMkSL1nrysPRPrp58nRtfO bkYCVXfjzP7RDvgUZq2kW8H0eBSbIXomuM4XX9BHsh/BZs/gpXatAP1L8LA3y7M5SQAf 3ZzGenP6HBrTlo5iFdF7Vcpeo2S0BjC0Ddi///FbngR+KbFDaTM0FoLDqtJR+T6FWXwL Lp6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKWCBJL43zpvH9dBnbZfBr4er6BgFH+kC25Rzt1sR7YggnWL4Nsz fhmS49FeQ0F/AfbZt/G251QAxq+rYpekYKdrLtMe6w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set83TZWYywrkxFUKR0dnsd/h+oBJnVGeDLMcfRUd/0Q4wMMe/eyr2kG2zNE0QVXsbEQncQyJIKheJsngnFNPiMY= X-Received: by 2002:a50:d086:0:b0:4ad:72b2:cf57 with SMTP id v6-20020a50d086000000b004ad72b2cf57mr9886345edd.0.1677383116317; Sat, 25 Feb 2023 19:45:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <58626A0B-EF9C-4920-8E20-CE0C4210BA6A@planet.nl> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2023 20:45:04 -0700 Message-ID: To: Dan Cross Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ccfc1305f5923080" Message-ID-Hash: ZPN5LLAZMM7HJHT4GQU763DDC22UW5AG X-Message-ID-Hash: ZPN5LLAZMM7HJHT4GQU763DDC22UW5AG X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Paul Ruizendaal , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Early GUI on Linux List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000ccfc1305f5923080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Feb 25, 2023, 8:29 PM Dan Cross wrote: > On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 9:40 PM Theodore Ts'o wrote: > > I think it's fair to say that in the very early days of Linux, most of > > the people who were using it were people who kernel hackers; and so we > > didn't have all that many people who were interested in developing new > > windowing systems. We just wanted to be able to have multiple xterms > > and Emacs windows. > > This is another important thing to bear in mind: this predates the > explosion of the world wide web; most people back then paradoxically > ran a lot more local software on their machines (applications weren't > de facto mediated by a web browser), but a lot of that software was > simpler. xterm and a text editor and a lot of folks were good to go. > The graphical www... Lynx was a thing for a long time... spent a lot of time looking for info on how too boot Linux to get it going. Usenet archives and mailing lists searching for clues. www and gopher and wais.. > In fact, support for X Windows predated the development of a > > networking stack; we had Unix domain sockets, so that was enough for > > X, but we didn't have a working networking stack at that point! I > > would be running X, and then running C-Kermit to download files from > > MIT over a dialup modem. > > !! > > > At that point, X windows wasn't *flaky* per se, but remember that back > > then monitors were very persnicky about exactly what resolutions and > > frequences they would accept. And this was before monitors supported > > EDID (Extended Display Identification Data), which allowed the X > > server to figure out what the parameters were of the monitor. So that > > meant that configuring the X server with the correct resolution, > > frequencies, etc., was tricky. There were long and complex documents > > explaining how to do it, and it was a very manual process. If you got > > the calculations wrong, the image might not be stable, but that wasn't > > a software bug so much as it was a configuration error. > > Yeah, this: once you got something configured and working it wasn't > like it crashed all the time or anything like that. But getting it > working in the first place was challenging; it was a _far_ cry from > today, where it seems like most of the time, X "just works" out of the > box. Or even from most workstations of the era, which largely worked > with little or no tedious configuration (because the vendor had done > the hard work to bring X up on their hardware already). > > But on x86, I recall that even slight perturbations in a system could > keep X from running. For example, one might have the right model of > xfree86-supported video card, but from a manufacturing run of cards > that did not work (because they used rev B of an internal component > instead of A, perhaps). Or the card might not work on a different > motherboard, etc. > > Getting it working could be a real exercise in frustration. > Taught me patience as I brute forced a solution... then worked backwards to make the next one work faster.... front porches and backporches seemed concrete when reading the svga howtos... that died a flaming death when I read data sheets... wasn't until I read video demystified that I started to get it... and only then because I was working with video engineers that explained the differences... so yea.. super frustrating... > There were programs (for example, the most famous was the graphical > > game "Tuxracer") which wrote directly to the frame buffer, but there > > wasn't anyone who was interested in developing their own compositor. > > We just wanted xterms and (later) Firefox to work! > > Firefox? Wow, talk about a Johnny Come Lately. :-) I can still > remember compiling NCSA Mosaic on a SPARCstation 2. Those were the > days...very painful days.... > Yes... lots of pain and patches and rebuilding... on slow machines... Warner > - Dan C. > > > > As far as discussion about what should and shouldn't go into the > > kernel, most people agreed that as much as possible, especially in > > graphics land, should be out of the kernel. The fact that we didn't > > have a lot of graphics specialists in the kernel development > > community, and that in those early days the vast majority of Linux > > boxen where single user machines just sealed the deal. > --000000000000ccfc1305f5923080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Feb 25, 2023, 8:29 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 9:40 PM Theodore Ts'o &l= t;tyt= so@mit.edu> wrote:
> I think it's fair to say that in the very early days of Linux, mos= t of
> the people who were using it were people who kernel hackers; and so we=
> didn't have all that many people who were interested in developing= new
> windowing systems.=C2=A0 We just wanted to be able to have multiple xt= erms
> and Emacs windows.

This is another important thing to bear in mind: this predates the
explosion of the world wide web; most people back then paradoxically
ran a lot more local software on their machines (applications weren't de facto mediated by a web browser), but a lot of that software was
simpler. xterm and a text editor and a lot of folks were good to go.

The gra= phical www... Lynx was a thing for a long time... spent a lot of time looki= ng for info on how too boot Linux to get it going. Usenet archives and mail= ing lists searching for clues. www and gopher and wais..

> In fact, support for X Windows predated the development of a
> networking stack; we had Unix domain sockets, so that was enough for > X, but we didn't have a working networking stack at that point!=C2= =A0 I
> would be running X, and then running C-Kermit to download files from > MIT over a dialup modem.

!!

> At that point, X windows wasn't *flaky* per se, but remember that = back
> then monitors were very persnicky about exactly what resolutions and > frequences they would accept.=C2=A0 And this was before monitors suppo= rted
> EDID (Extended Display Identification Data), which allowed the X
> server to figure out what the parameters were of the monitor.=C2=A0 So= that
> meant that configuring the X server with the correct resolution,
> frequencies, etc., was tricky.=C2=A0 There were long and complex docum= ents
> explaining how to do it, and it was a very manual process.=C2=A0 If yo= u got
> the calculations wrong, the image might not be stable, but that wasn&#= 39;t
> a software bug so much as it was a configuration error.

Yeah, this: once you got something configured and working it wasn't
like it crashed all the time or anything like that. But getting it
working in the first place was challenging; it was a _far_ cry from
today, where it seems like most of the time, X "just works" out o= f the
box. Or even from most workstations of the era, which largely worked
with little or no tedious configuration (because the vendor had done
the hard work to bring X up on their hardware already).

But on x86, I recall that even slight perturbations in a system could
keep X from running. For example, one might have the right model of
xfree86-supported video card, but from a manufacturing run of cards
that did not work (because they used rev B of an internal component
instead of A, perhaps). Or the card might not work on a different
motherboard, etc.

Getting it working could be a real exercise in frustration.

Taught me patien= ce as I brute forced a solution... then worked backwards to make the next o= ne work faster.... front porches and backporches seemed concrete when readi= ng the svga howtos...=C2=A0 that died a flaming death when I read data shee= ts... wasn't until I read video demystified that I started to get it...= and only then because I was working with video engineers that explained th= e differences... so yea..=C2=A0 super frustrating...

> There were programs (for example, the most famous was the graphical > game "Tuxracer") which wrote directly to the frame buffer, b= ut there
> wasn't anyone who was interested in developing their own composito= r.
> We just wanted xterms and (later) Firefox to work!

Firefox? Wow, talk about a Johnny Come Lately. :-) I can still
remember compiling NCSA Mosaic on a SPARCstation 2. Those were the
days...very painful days....
=
Yes... lots of pain and patches and rebuilding.= .. on slow machines...

W= arner=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.


> As far as discussion about what should and shouldn't go into the > kernel, most people agreed that as much as possible, especially in
> graphics land, should be out of the kernel.=C2=A0 The fact that we did= n't
> have a lot of graphics specialists in the kernel development
> community, and that in those early days the vast majority of Linux
> boxen where single user machines just sealed the deal.
--000000000000ccfc1305f5923080--