From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 1539 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2023 02:14:40 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 23 Feb 2023 02:14:40 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B871F42245; Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:14:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ed1-x52f.google.com (mail-ed1-x52f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52f]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2ECC142240 for ; Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:14:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ed1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id x10so37249697edd.13 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 2023 18:14:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=wmTzNR2dFYWgkoswJ1Jd4ii5eM57CZvnXh236o5J7Vg=; b=K3yUhaEvvDoHsFX7yty8c1mLVrDpgVi3Q38rMKCDxw3v84+iUws9SO2SWV3ybjDL3J Fh+WSRv1I4qRS1b7lTsWaGx2u6p2eXxPDTVeHiQqg5KwPJd7Ly2KaavDqST5ZTsSzfGc 9iTdLoyC2sH+krCeoj5irsh9ybaVxsqAPouf66uu3/8ZXneCzZLNnYpFOImoGlxmKj0c lkEaFeCQYk8vV8a/1ztxnCqK+SLqu5TPleuObrlIz9pJRE91nCDygQUiJPK6RvCvIKnD hNuYEbKsaWVBcpnNUiCvKEcIB449xBlGxMzaqJZcV4oFJG7J3w7H+c76S2uHNSqJQvvH 64Hw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=wmTzNR2dFYWgkoswJ1Jd4ii5eM57CZvnXh236o5J7Vg=; b=uVlGl1EYONtyJQasMO8H5ZxcMaGhbrlzQedgreTHa6suf0CIaH+t5k3yJd7hgixaFb +CYIhbnhpErrZGhyZcq2sUkf3tgXF/+Go/NHBbpPd+L7xcli/+aUQ5fSj9IGLJOxiOl3 PQ19bC8hd0AhRgzOZ/rgACd+jCzriWQUr8puU5HRSx408+1MNpWggOgCOpmcf8exgVqA mcsWDUxhRy4JAA3x46jWngWt57YrYRJaiDlIkbm1so/5aAYFUntIvpC1oKNBDWUi08cH NuVZpAe50DSkxt3DUG1oRBy9Vii9Z86C+kejaIIuoRf30auIvAkFS6QSFn0n5Hw5SR2c W8+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKXBSQUX/Bfjzd0NS+fSPfrpVhWctYXq8K0oQH5K5JBh8vyanLbf DuD5df0e6PpdxF5mvyX3aoAO4w4Ji8N7XkFeK4WoxQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+NhkVs3QkMVe5yjxLiPUIDBNP5DsEQTjmc7BUP2Rjfc8IOFC7I69nIFAJhVuqwLSXYe6rii82XZw0WC4cZeH4= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:4885:b0:8b2:23fb:dfd1 with SMTP id v5-20020a170906488500b008b223fbdfd1mr9266659ejq.2.1677118466164; Wed, 22 Feb 2023 18:14:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <170a8b0c-4fcb-9069-aeac-5dda72a7eeea@computer.org> In-Reply-To: <170a8b0c-4fcb-9069-aeac-5dda72a7eeea@computer.org> From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 19:14:16 -0700 Message-ID: To: Rob Gingell Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006c202005f5549254" Message-ID-Hash: 2I6YJF4YX6FHOXRTYRBYELHYPWPDTYOV X-Message-ID-Hash: 2I6YJF4YX6FHOXRTYRBYELHYPWPDTYOV X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: TUHS X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Open sourcing SunOS? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000006c202005f5549254 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 5:12 PM Rob Gingell wrote: > On 2/22/23 12:04 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > SunOS 4 has a lot of encumbered code in it, ... > > SunOS had a complicated set of license encumbrances. I can't claim to > have fully understood them even at the time. In the mid-1980s, the > notion of "open sourcing" as we understand it today wasn't a goal or > even considered and so never entered into the terms of the technologies > Sun used. These might have been overcome with effort but in the context > of the time it didn't seem important. > > Things Sun licensed widely, like source kits for NFS/VFS, were things we > routinely and repeatedly sanitized as they evolved. > > As part of the SPARC partners program SunOS was licensed to people > building SPARC-based products but as Warner notes in the Solbourne > experience, especially early on, there wasn't a "product" so much as a > "process" that disseminated it. > Process is a good word here :). > > I also know that Sun tried to donate their VM system to Berkeley btween > > BSD4.3 > > and BSD4.4. > > It would be more correct to say that Sun was willing to donate the VM > system back to Berkeley, but my recollection is that CSRG planned to get > to that functionality through a different implementation path and didn't > want it. > I got my story from Kirk McKusick who was very clear that it was going to happen, but didn't due to some hold up at the highest levels. It was only then that the decided to go with Mach after they couldn't get it... We expected "everyone" to eventually get the VM system, as it was in > SVR4 before SunOS 4.0 even shipped, and so "everyone" (even the people > who otherwise offered BSD systems) would have access to it, just like we > did. (Of course that notion of "everyone" is pretty limited but at the > time it was just The Way It Was.) > Yea, all proper licensees :). > We did donate all the shared library work to Berkeley, probably the > closest to what we'd now call "open source" that Sun did in that era. At > the time, Berkeley didn't plan on migrating off of the a.out object file > format and so it was useful to them to have the a.out-based implementation. > Yea, BSD didn't migrate off of a.out until the fission into FreeBSD and NetBSD since they did things slightly differently... > > Had the support of Scott McNeely and was almost a done deal. However > > the lawyers said that the company would need to take a 'write down' loss > > on the > > donation, which would likely tank the stock price of Sun, so it was > > nixed. > While I am confident he would have supported it, I doubt Scott ever knew > about the donations and discussions. The organization-chart-local VP > signed off on it and I had a 10 minute phone conversation (no part of > which involved balance sheets or stock values) with the lawyer who wrote > the letter of transmittal that accompanied the code. > I don't doubt that. I certainly wasn't there. I've heard the story from Kirk several times though... Warner --0000000000006c202005f5549254 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 5:12 PM Rob G= ingell <gingell@computer.org= > wrote:
On 2= /22/23 12:04 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
> SunOS 4 has a lot of encumbered code in it, ...

SunOS had a complicated set of license encumbrances. I can't claim to <= br> have fully understood them even at the time. In the mid-1980s, the
notion of "open sourcing" as we understand it today wasn't a = goal or
even considered and so never entered into the terms of the technologies Sun used. These might have been overcome with effort but in the context of the time it didn't seem important.

Things Sun licensed widely, like source kits for NFS/VFS, were things we routinely and repeatedly sanitized as they evolved.

As part of the SPARC partners program SunOS was licensed to people
building SPARC-based products but as Warner notes in the Solbourne
experience, especially early on, there wasn't a "product" so = much as a
"process" that disseminated it.

Process is a good word here :).
=C2=A0
> I also know that Sun tried to donate their VM system to Berkeley btwee= n
> BSD4.3
> and BSD4.4.

It would be more correct to say that Sun was willing to donate the VM
system back to Berkeley, but my recollection is that CSRG planned to get to that functionality through a different implementation path and didn'= t
want it.

I got my story from Kirk McKus= ick who=C2=A0 was very clear that it was going
to happen, but did= n't due to some hold up at the highest levels. It was only
th= en that the decided to go with Mach after they couldn't get it...

We expected "everyone" to eventually get the VM system, as it was= in
SVR4 before SunOS 4.0 even shipped, and so "everyone" (even the p= eople
who otherwise offered BSD systems) would have access to it, just like we did. (Of course that notion of "everyone" is pretty limited but a= t the
time it was just The Way It Was.)

Yea, = all proper licensees :).
=C2=A0
We did donate all the shared library work to Berkeley, probably the
closest to what we'd now call "open source" that Sun did in t= hat era. At
the time, Berkeley didn't plan on migrating off of the a.out object fil= e
format and so it was useful to them to have the a.out-based implementation.=

Yea, BSD didn't migrate off of a.o= ut until the fission into FreeBSD and NetBSD
since they did thing= s slightly differently...
=C2=A0
> Had the support of Scott McNeely and was almost a done deal. However &= gt; the lawyers said that the company would need to take a 'write down&= #39; loss
> on the
> donation, which would likely tank the stock price of Sun, so it was > nixed.
While I am confident he would have supported it, I doubt Scott ever knew about the donations and discussions. The organization-chart-local VP
signed off on it and I had a 10 minute phone conversation (no part of
which involved balance sheets or stock values) with the lawyer who wrote the letter of transmittal that accompanied the code.
<= br>
=C2=A0I don't doubt that. I certainly wasn't there. I= 've heard the story from Kirk several times though...

Warner
--0000000000006c202005f5549254--