From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F19021490 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2024 00:39:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA3224278A; Sat, 14 Dec 2024 09:39:06 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pg1-x52b.google.com (mail-pg1-x52b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52b]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B69A42789 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2024 09:39:02 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pg1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-7fd17f231a7so1404396a12.0 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2024 15:39:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1734133141; x=1734737941; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=093E9WMyXqtnQ24o5ROPbLFAGwGw7eIzmngcbuXW8Zg=; b=ZoiTU1qosNWwWo0y3VB8gVIX9g1dntdy+UpwQIX1NdHRxaPO2SosPF90/Bi1HBjk8N jhfxiRnZ7Amduef1dXjJMfM4NppckRHDy5kYWtCWNId8HpwqNLtT3ig6WJwiqTJgTJwJ ki09itPG70mRILvvhWBbxsY4p/8GVQu7qKv154DXdIgP+8LntG1x5a+fu4oJApIL7Fc5 2VH3pWqn62ebuv59/2FEckcCGnnhJQVcVO68mlx+dQdhDLfSQFjJATGR6Azha+UxaJdz mbzUiEZMM9vF2ki4LlxwP0UbGeN21TtKa560ME9wxbygdJU2otcu9FZmlKgwFf7j7aTM eWLg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1734133141; x=1734737941; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=093E9WMyXqtnQ24o5ROPbLFAGwGw7eIzmngcbuXW8Zg=; b=aE9+E8U9erDUB0e6SvM70ARZrCU1o1KksEjCL7YM9HMVc0ad7OENDR8x4AyQQX1F4W NYhmH1GS4LJLBSFmDOG0TWcMag5BNfifHNfDu8aAJf9Gp7wsn8MhWhU8YTQD2dC/H7qo do7g13KD2+0edRbFiTko5+UfVDQ1i+jXLC3ycbLBuyCuGQ4ARN49gVUZkOwG6funwqZx hPV6Lbqw4/6dxVZKJko4OlwHbqv7PHmlHTcBM0NmpCqGpX5OGc2vvXEC5n/i7d/3VmPK lxUq7zQyeYrDVtaUsU/nkmQixioGa7jhuEuh4bHg1TBvMW5wAjvhFJ40RwNSOzugw481 pukg== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVuH0iMYsf6fei+GpClOq5JLIwl5PGJX4gic8GSHon6wzKcCmn4g5q72A8BqRqkPI+U8yZ6@tuhs.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyvyrMfu1zHHTqP7CPJMT0aqPD0MoVlbAKKIdGCoixWLCiqSBhA demSqMWAGrFoRJPG2SBfO5khsBLDuUHvWkRkc0XKEQbEoMqmiNRPAfOoiCcpzui9/NhbBglrbvw Yq9jmt09CaoldFy4SQzlh17SKhs9hdJzZ9VVJwiOy3jOSQammfU4= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvsDL6kYlAQO+/h89vlzCnKJZ7OxVZ4um40+CLAG2RrfhR48GWzMSCMQ19KH27 +bJK5w61cYi6tGBqklWWp2hpCzM6iY+tgJ49MPNtIUBafMrrUX0Geyjyf5oH7/yZ8vgD/ X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEbCafvxhnkelKEaNKxgL7+9+p13cf6C3IraviIW6NQgCm/E7IB4qu2yBgfv/6URvplSJwm4yeYe1UDdD6MIYE= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:2708:b0:2ee:f677:aa14 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2f28fb6d132mr6697802a91.13.1734133141313; Fri, 13 Dec 2024 15:39:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <242CD757E4871441B72EA52F30CF4531.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org> <20241213231947.GB11590@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20241213231947.GB11590@mcvoy.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2024 16:38:49 -0700 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e1bf6806292f554d" Message-ID-Hash: FK66ICM2DQV2DUZPDWF6WCO3PWAYIOP2 X-Message-ID-Hash: FK66ICM2DQV2DUZPDWF6WCO3PWAYIOP2 X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: SCCS roach motel List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000e1bf6806292f554d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Dec 13, 2024, 4:19=E2=80=AFPM Larry McVoy wrote: > On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 05:57:55PM -0500, Norman Wilson wrote: > > This is verging on COFF material, and I won't mind if someone > > moves the discussion thither: > > > > Clem Cole: > > > > As a satisfied user of SCCS (and later Bitkeeper), it's still my > preferred > > choice. > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > I have to admit SCCS is one of the many pieces of software > > I tried for a week or two > 40 years ago and abandoned because > > I couldn't stand it. I don't think I ever tried RCS, because > > I could see it didn't what I saw as the underlying problems. > > CVS likewise. Subversion was the earliest version-control > > system that felt usable to me. > > > > What bugged me so much? The earlier systems were focussed > > entirely (or for CVS, almost entirely) on individual files. > > There was no way to link changes that affected more than one > > file: > > That was the problem that BitKeeper solved. There was an extra step, > bk commit, that glued all the files together in an atomic commit. > That and each commit was like a CVS tag, you can roll the history back > to any commit, no tags are needed. That's because while you think of a > revision as 1.5 or whatever, and BitKeeper had that interface, the real > name is a a provably unique key made up of > > user@host|path/to/file.c|time_t|sccs_cksum > > We called those "keys" and you could use a key any place you could use > a revision. > That's a nice feature... Too bad we don't have it for the historic SCCS trees. Also, the historical SCCS trees lack metatdata about file renames (which were done by moving the ,s files)... Warner I'll spare you how we made them unique, but I can tell you that in two > decades of BK use on every continent other than the artic, we've never > had a key collision. Does require that you use DNS. > > BTW, the CVS/SCCS/RCS importers guessed at commit boundaries and made > those systems yield commits. We looked at author, check in comments, > and time stamps, same author, same comments and within a short window, > that's the same commit. > > --lm > --000000000000e1bf6806292f554d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Dec 13, 2024, 4:19=E2=80= =AFPM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> = wrote:
On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 05:5= 7:55PM -0500, Norman Wilson wrote:
> This is verging on COFF material, and I won't mind if someone
> moves the discussion thither:
>
> Clem Cole:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0As a satisfied user of SCCS (and later Bitkeeper), it'= s still my preferred
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0choice.
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> I have to admit SCCS is one of the many pieces of software
> I tried for a week or two > 40 years ago and abandoned because
> I couldn't stand it.=C2=A0 I don't think I ever tried RCS, bec= ause
> I could see it didn't what I saw as the underlying problems.
> CVS likewise.=C2=A0 Subversion was the earliest version-control
> system that felt usable to me.
>
> What bugged me so much?=C2=A0 The earlier systems were focussed
> entirely (or for CVS, almost entirely) on individual files.
> There was no way to link changes that affected more than one
> file:

That was the problem that BitKeeper solved.=C2=A0 There was an extra step,<= br> bk commit, that glued all the files together in an atomic commit.
That and each commit was like a CVS tag, you can roll the history back
to any commit, no tags are needed.=C2=A0 That's because while you think= of a
revision as 1.5 or whatever, and BitKeeper had that interface, the real
name is a a provably unique key made up of

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 user@host|path/to/file.c|time_t|sccs_cksum

We called those "keys" and you could use a key any place you coul= d use
a revision.

That's a nice feature... Too bad we don't have it for th= e historic SCCS trees.

A= lso, the historical SCCS trees lack metatdata about file renames (which wer= e done by moving the ,s files)...=C2=A0

Warner

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
I'll spare you how we made them unique, but I can tell you that in two<= br> decades of BK use on every continent other than the artic, we've never<= br> had a key collision.=C2=A0 Does require that you use DNS.

BTW, the CVS/SCCS/RCS importers guessed at commit boundaries and made
those systems yield commits.=C2=A0 We looked at author, check in comments,<= br> and time stamps, same author, same comments and within a short window,
that's the same commit.

--lm
--000000000000e1bf6806292f554d--