From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 11195 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2023 20:04:58 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 22 Feb 2023 20:04:58 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3674C42228; Thu, 23 Feb 2023 06:04:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ed1-x533.google.com (mail-ed1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::533]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AAEBA42227 for ; Thu, 23 Feb 2023 06:04:48 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ed1-x533.google.com with SMTP id ec43so34666309edb.8 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 2023 12:04:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=OMJUIqeWkwvVNXn0lq4JH3Mrpcl55wgEex5O90wGZlE=; b=6I3CzlsE0xE0A5nIUTrppspb/beP0amVSvPhkiuABIG9uQ+JjaqhIR8GZIzKJAJufd GG4OW8ndLa5Wzl659MX0YkXyRCBpElmnl2OgAbm4tbeGcyGIQrRtNHP3jRFFWAexvF40 opiCklpjDAVWlqp/+XDVpLxqumQ2chEGZm+wm80TGF1bJhmJdSZ47ilTkcKHw6Jva4gz IcqwZMADdniK6S5l+E9L1CjjBFf658X7HWhHg4FVUInwMpSu3IluQqaBE4Ua4G8pd707 r2bg3p4T7wqW6SmWFqWv1yd4xsB6bwrcjzIHlH/G0rviX9Xh6MOzNX6OIp4DJF1k9M2c aq1w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=OMJUIqeWkwvVNXn0lq4JH3Mrpcl55wgEex5O90wGZlE=; b=Z8dAHvlkJMBWBUbduMfevz3DIB4I2VkUoylcqeoQQONGJ/udE+u3gfvLJyTNYN2XLE cn9YnlxBESBotm/DFoPyerdQGPmESYJbI4dERxBAywS1WWJKIXQAt8wkP/oQ/S3Wj1FN c02+hgg2IlErRlrb+Oz2mCTLfpWa83r2t/ljlFa2ZqKBUkfwhbkbM3G28AguBKd9PNWS 7nKT0ryHnHGmP+uYZevmCzbrk20EQV/hC83iMv+Zr5/g/BBhNhzL7mgyy/vDaM2roa8U 57X/6aIk79bZMUMUM0gUmA3hAZtF2qh+oBIY7SAEdjO1OeXnMZh6XiFT1CThY1bz/vu+ fTpg== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKURLowCnnpyNGMB6n7OvDPX0ESeWZNZuFs6iRASi/v9pEn2LFz5 wzdFeTMF1xvQXDTXAUWvuR3u+Ah8IFalkFLJ3SpiE5ra4Jzd0Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set/O9c8gTMHJUycpaYCn40pCG5AcoRriM6yjV2stnx5qT187PZLbGfjimcXQa3wVhKVXvZs7O81isVeFrINtgvo= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:9f25:b0:8d9:8f8f:d545 with SMTP id fy37-20020a1709069f2500b008d98f8fd545mr6624552ejc.0.1677096287013; Wed, 22 Feb 2023 12:04:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 13:04:37 -0700 Message-ID: To: Dan Cross Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007124c205f54f68da" Message-ID-Hash: L5AEY2BE7LBJXXUSYVLWHCT4XF3GMQUJ X-Message-ID-Hash: L5AEY2BE7LBJXXUSYVLWHCT4XF3GMQUJ X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: TUHS X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Open sourcing SunOS? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000007124c205f54f68da Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Feb 22, 2023, 8:50 AM Dan Cross wrote: > Has anyone tried talking to anyone at Oracle about possibly getting > the SunOS code released under an open source license? There can't be > any commercial value left in it. > SunOS 4 has a lot of encumbered code in it, especially for i386 drivers. Bits of the network stack as well. It was hopeless to try to open source. There was a lot of bits and pieces that Sun had done with contracts that were, at best, ambiguous for what to do should they want to open source it. At least that's the story I've heard from people at Sun, both engineers and management. I know when Solbourne did their OS/MP 4.0 and 4.1 SunOS MP system, there was a lot of back and forth between Solbourne's and Sun's lawyers to get all the pieces needed to build the system. For example, initially SunView was not included in the offering, so my group was formed to write our clone for it (This would become OI (Object Interface) and uib (User Interface Builder) that we did in C++ to allow it to present in either Motif or OpenLook). I also know that Sun tried to donate their VM system to Berkeley btween BSD4.3 and BSD4.4. Had the support of Scott McNeely and was almost a done deal. However, the lawyers said that the company would need to take a 'write down' loss on the donation, which would likely tank the stock price of Sun, so it was nixed. So instead, Berkeley did the next best thing (really the only available thing) and went with the MachVM. One can find the sources to 4.1.4 and 4.1.3 online (though not the earlier 4.1.1 or 4.0.x which have the i386 port in it). The newer sources do have i386 bits, but from my cursory investigation, it's mostly remnants of the support. Of course, if one were to modify this, and try to distribute it, you'd likely be asking for trouble. At least two of the abandonware sites have copies. There's also something purporting to the the SCCS files for the system, but alas, they are not actually there. Having talked to the VPs that got OpenSolaris released about doing SunOS (after they'd left Sun, I worked for them), it was clear that OpenSolaris was hard enough. SunOS 4 was too old by even the point to get all the successors in interest to agree to modifications of the old contracts to allow source distribution without significant restrictions to agree to make enough of the system available for it to be interesting to people. Oracle has pulled back from OpenSolaris, fired all the Solaris engineers and has all that on basically life support. I doubt they'd want to do anything for even that modern code base, let alone something that's ancient history, would be hard to find, would be difficult to find the old paperwork for it to clear legal, etc. So, I'm not at all optimistic this could ever happen prior to the expiration of the copyrights of the original code. Warner - Dan C. > --0000000000007124c205f54f68da Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Feb 22, 2023, 8:50 AM Dan Cro= ss <crossd@gmail.c= om> wrote:
Has anyone tried = talking to anyone at Oracle about possibly getting
the SunOS code released under an open source license? There can't be any commercial value left in it.

SunOS 4 has a lot of encumbered code in it,= especially for i386 drivers. Bits of the
network st= ack as well. It was hopeless to try to open source. There was a lot of bits=
and pieces that Sun had done with contracts that were, at best, = ambiguous for
what to do should they want to open source it. At l= east that's the story I've heard
from people at Sun, both= engineers and management.

I know when Solbourne d= id their OS/MP 4.0 and 4.1 SunOS MP system, there
was a lot of ba= ck and forth between Solbourne's and Sun's lawyers to get all
=
the pieces needed to build the system. For example, initially SunView = was not
included in the offering, so my group was formed to write= our clone for it (This
would become OI (Object Interface) a= nd uib (User Interface Builder) that we
did in C++ to allow it to= present in either Motif or OpenLook).

I also know= that Sun tried to donate their VM system to Berkeley btween BSD4.3
and BSD4.4. Had the support of Scott McNeely and was almost a done deal.= However,
the lawyers said that the company would need to take a = 'write down' loss on the
donation, which would likely tan= k the stock price of Sun, so it was nixed. So instead,
Berkeley d= id the next best thing (really the only available thing) and went with the<= /div>
MachVM.

One can find the sources to 4.1.= 4 and 4.1.3 online (though not the earlier 4.1.1 or
4.0.x which h= ave the i386 port in it). The newer sources do have i386 bits, but from
my cursory investigation, it's mostly remnants of the support. O= f course, if one were
to modify this, and try to distribute it, y= ou'd likely be asking for trouble. At least two
of the abando= nware sites have copies. There's also something purporting to the the
SCCS files for the system, but alas, they are not actually there.<= /div>

Having talked to the VPs that got OpenSolaris rele= ased about doing SunOS (after
they'd left Sun, I worked for t= hem), it was clear that OpenSolaris was hard enough.
SunOS 4 was = too old by even the point to get all the successors in interest to
agree to modifications of the old contracts to allow source distribution = without
significant restrictions to agree to make enough of the s= ystem available for it to
be interesting to people.
Oracle has pulled back from OpenSolaris, fired all the Solaris = engineers and has
all that on basically life support. I doubt the= y'd want to do anything for even that
modern code base, let a= lone something that's ancient history, would be hard to find,
would be difficult to find the old paperwork for it to clear legal, etc.

So, I'm not at all optimistic this could ev= er happen prior to the expiration of the
copyrights of the origin= al code.

Warner

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.
--0000000000007124c205f54f68da--