From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 1576 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2021 17:58:37 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 3 Jul 2021 17:58:37 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 2A50D9C9AB; Sun, 4 Jul 2021 03:58:35 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 829789C86C; Sun, 4 Jul 2021 03:58:10 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b="DwbVwKqU"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 676829C86C; Sun, 4 Jul 2021 03:57:57 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f182.google.com (mail-qt1-f182.google.com [209.85.160.182]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0D3C9C864 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2021 03:57:56 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f182.google.com with SMTP id c13so9150802qtb.12 for ; Sat, 03 Jul 2021 10:57:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xV2XxJC/gbthTNJx9piI1/j04hMpEwscEsrEbn2wZn0=; b=DwbVwKqUX7GN9tYY2bywV5UkaR56g1rc8rgwJpjErKAUK2gy0+lwdvpgfghpWq7L8W ix3blfN5l2I7JiGZQ3gpwv89iU21Nsm9iUnZ2jNmh2+huOEEPg1Nfl2V5g5OC+bs6AY8 KW33mcgBNR/KqkjQilUp8JJJWRvzhMnLFhS+tzBWuKoqPaCIJ+TR0Zb4elEB0TwQUdo0 TA7rZXKfK1ylP22nQc1XEwKcFPGLYIRozG9GeFmWmlFko2I5YEKp1UdQCZmxo5xxsY1n 1pBwCwPbScZBtbgFjoQGdLUMxPed5ehvawIdhHLSO0/XyBkIWQmj1AQ2yuT8O6mQ8rGx zCOA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xV2XxJC/gbthTNJx9piI1/j04hMpEwscEsrEbn2wZn0=; b=ZeZn66+GORq3/SsLK6HUN8jonHn/eyqRnNAkfMcSSit8c4DrDDVtViK8z0dWUgGsGd Rmaoao+te7UptUAxj8sTqSthuvs7hkTvmQvPL7DtC/QNFrVBO8cMx789hXn9FsxRl6BO ECERVdmVszoBqIof3InN2YFAlR/tmlxpjJWPT/tV/IXg8HOaTxCBOJmxbrn6uAsoRrw6 6f6w2xzG7OxcsfZbjojaFKHbe2VL5LgpfEVXQftSwviAUWu577tdo0wUR25xfiaucWOC xwWiq/Ef4CdzKPq4ucikjeiTYsw98aXjr6KA6ZjnKshC619qEr6nv5xPerWkXijHXiPx BW0A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532oxZBg6tdNQgqCRAy9WIZJzBNnt2OPzVU09hlToIEXkHFwrcCI oG+cffm6Zol634Trn0OxXBjIprRfw/m8TZxIB/fWcgPp5zIRGA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzfpqLbuBAEWBgXbyAhdah5w6QpSmDbYOFmUiLtUmofJ5/pUuxBJb5udBIhvTsIcx75bXGKL/dzxf9KYyzznbQ= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:2:: with SMTP id a2mr5315630qtg.101.1625335075582; Sat, 03 Jul 2021 10:57:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210702213648.GW817@mcvoy.com> <396911b232bae5938068a14fe0f7181e@firemail.de> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2021 11:57:44 -0600 Message-ID: To: "Theodore Ts'o" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d2476205c63bcf95" Subject: Re: [TUHS] [tuhs] The Unix shell: a 50-year view X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000d2476205c63bcf95 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Jul 3, 2021 at 11:45 AM Theodore Ts'o wrote: > On Sat, Jul 03, 2021 at 09:20:57AM -0400, Dan Cross wrote: > > > > Systemd is both good and bad. > > I agree with most of what you assess as "good" and "bad" with systemd. > However... > > > It uses ersatz data formats that are abjectly > > horrible. It uses binary logging, which means that one cannot use the > full > > complement of Unix text filters to inspect logs.... > > To be fair, systemd isn't the first. BSD's sar program uses a binary > log file. > You mean System V's sar program? BSD has never had a sar program. It's not in any of the CSRG releases, nor in any of {Free,Net,Open}BSD systems that are around today. It first appeared in System Vr1, and was in each of the following releases if the listings of files on the net are any indication. > I'm not sure whether it's BSD's fault or only after it was pulled into > the systat package for Linux, but the binary format for the sar file > is (a) not self-describing, (b) not backwards compatible, and (c) not > stable between different versions, such that if you copy /var/log/sa/saNN > the files from one system and try to interpret it on another system, you > need to make sure that other system has the same version of sar installed. > Sounds awful... Warner --000000000000d2476205c63bcf95 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sat, Jul 3, 2021 at 11:45 AM Theod= ore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu> wro= te:
On Sat, Jul = 03, 2021 at 09:20:57AM -0400, Dan Cross wrote:
>
> Systemd is both good and bad.

I agree with most of what you assess as "good" and "bad"= ; with systemd.
However...

> It uses ersatz data formats that are abjectly
> horrible. It uses binary logging, which means that one cannot use the = full
> complement of Unix text filters to inspect logs....

To be fair, systemd isn't the first.=C2=A0 BSD's sar program uses a= binary
log file.

You mean System V's sar p= rogram? BSD has never had a sar program.
It's not in any of t= he CSRG releases, nor in any of {Free,Net,Open}BSD
systems that a= re around today.

It first appeared in System Vr1, = and was in each of the following releases
if the listings=C2=A0of= files on the net are any indication.
=C2=A0
I'm not sure whether it's BSD's fault or only after it was pull= ed into
the systat package for Linux, but the binary format for the sar file
is (a) not self-describing, (b) not backwards compatible, and (c) not
stable between different versions, such that if you copy /var/log/sa/saNN the files from one system and try to interpret it on another system, you need to make sure that other system has the same version of sar installed.<= br>

Sounds awful...

Warner
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