From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D86E31AB5 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2024 20:27:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CD2743D00; Sun, 15 Dec 2024 05:27:00 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pl1-x630.google.com (mail-pl1-x630.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::630]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D94743CFD for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2024 05:26:56 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pl1-x630.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-2165448243fso28315565ad.1 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2024 11:26:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1734204415; x=1734809215; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=KEDUPCZGxPNHjcXhgKcmG+psZscZb7HbBDLu5sCqRMQ=; b=kQdD1F///HMr97AUByPmzi1ZN8fYNLoiflisACMnhooAKqD6LBNIoPiUadKCnCuLmB tFtSk5qUPNv6BOHxngkXasIJBUHx0S7lYO+iChMG/EKKdKYv8lU3h6V7UTuqZFsZu3+0 SjUHii2TdYDSEY4oyyDsPuP3fpGQuvLmui7FGsPJBsHYaubevOX0mbfasVEOxLLPCQVW b5hVotSNa+fdR6yZpJFpgAYiIWZbgg+nRg9zfHxKMgf2JO8vSo6i0OsJ3G9gQyINWAbA vnMZ6enlksFuJUW0pEUOEWfdXj0aKQLJMzitsUv68MOHRSpXyr/bqnJCLYP4MlshhJpd VQeg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1734204415; x=1734809215; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=KEDUPCZGxPNHjcXhgKcmG+psZscZb7HbBDLu5sCqRMQ=; b=QHfkkMuncm8+JrAXCNMllkWXtiUKkD83wQnxk+AhsjezsATvd57PYNoYadLt0HrGx/ mMbR5evxQcpR6WlzPov8KdlDQv/FN7/8pygVKtpWbY5XOT6BlltnjwiLcjAAtnxP1PWO nlXfaknMJI2CumbVyX9v660UdXTvv9bkv+k2TB7Z1N3A98B9NvgDfcMGuf2b7DyuPH4c AbyP9fLYOaxlzaaE+f6eEfLzVL8mI5mmZ92w/IVZgx5pitk2Devq7hb5IqWX9QIl7sqE i1QUxrSMYcETM4kLTMx48NxxX1948BGGbRamBODpGFQPyMhnAk8bokQEJKKOwMkckMCP ZCfA== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVDbDPAL7rcw5pOq00qrmY/3jdY0kUdzAelAAF9z2zOY1JhSNqvIlfTot8moQCeItDllRT+@tuhs.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwouSqhtnETRmZ/peEIKcZCki2UGMW/g+Vn3n1kMiRO6/d1E+DW b4EY8BofScCj+TZ6/t1KmgckK08yNpaZfR2C1J0z5Jlo4dk8N8yxI2PCMV75GAJffsoa917JXcK E2N2WFmpjA34w2wKxBvXowt8zDoRq6dIl1cNRYg== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncssiau7s8zMeJ6kzMMemReht8fPT7NBYbpP9RsN/GoUVqyRM45Q5T8qD7GirC/ UmNc1VFyJLw47jVZQRE3BlmOQ7sd5Gk5FlM+Z9HyORHqIjWavkLFtIJWo6KtLqZB0uu1Raw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFbyD0aC69pQeENid/MvbCCgXvn8lAdbK6Wq8eGtXU0qxTr5LafkPGWBKf3RKlAtLZyDx8fLuaaVzKBxCmJPW0= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:ea0b:b0:215:5625:885b with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-21892a7a858mr101715325ad.52.1734204415578; Sat, 14 Dec 2024 11:26:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20241213155336.GV11590@mcvoy.com> <202412141804.4BEI4K5c1726899@freefriends.org> In-Reply-To: <202412141804.4BEI4K5c1726899@freefriends.org> From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2024 12:26:43 -0700 Message-ID: To: Arnold Robbins Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000028a9f306293fee6b" Message-ID-Hash: 3JQE5GNWR3EV5QQNQ7M37LPEIYHQ23M4 X-Message-ID-Hash: 3JQE5GNWR3EV5QQNQ7M37LPEIYHQ23M4 X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: BSD talk program? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000028a9f306293fee6b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I tried to talk to my friends at New Mexico Tech when I was working at the Wollongong Group in Palo Alto in 89. It sucked too bad to do since TWG had a badle congested 9600 baud line... Warner On Sat, Dec 14, 2024, 11:04=E2=80=AFAM wrote: > When my wife and I were dating, she was at U Penn in Philadelphia > and I was at Emory in Atlanta. We occasionally used talk to > chat in real time. :-) This was in 1989. > > Larry McVoy wrote: > > > I loved talk when CS was running BSD on a VAX. You could see who was o= n > > and talk them. Very handy and it was sort of social. > > > > It's crazy how things were back then, open ports listening for all sort= s > > of things. I think we were pretty unaware of how nasty the internet > would > > get. > > > > On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 10:22:22AM -0500, Clem Cole wrote: > > > As for the motivation -- it was simple. UCB is on a hill. I lived a= t > the > > > base of hill and I only wanted to walk up it once a day. Our office > was a > > > big pool of about 20 of us next to the CAD machine room on the second > floor > > > of Cory Hall. Somebody was usually in the office most nights, but no= t > > > everyone. We all had modems and terminals at home, but only one pho= ne > > > line. We had 3 Vaxes in the CAD group, plus my Array Processor. So= I > > > wanted to be able to ask someone like Peter or TQ to reset the AP for > me if > > > I hosed it when I was working from home when I was debugging it. Plus > > > the obvious social aspects -- "hey you want go get a Pizza/Beer etc..= ." > > > But since we might be working on a different system, Kipps' hack was > > > useless. > > > ??? > > > ??? > > > ??? > > > ??? > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 10:14???AM Clem Cole wrote: > > > > > > > Yes -- I can give this history. > > > > Kipp wrote an early version for 4.1BSD - but it is not the version > in the > > > > releases. It ran on Ernie and did not do as much. > > > > I had used a different program on the PDP-10's and the ARPANET and = I > > > > started over when Joy added sockets for 4.1A. I also made the > infamous use > > > > of vax integers instead of network integers (and I knew better - bu= t > really > > > > did not think about until a few years later when I was at Masscomp > and > > > > compiled it for the 68000 -- ugh). That version still had a couple > of bugs > > > > in it (i.e. hung in the 4.1A networking code occasionally), but > worked well > > > > enough on the CAD systems. I went away to a USENIX conference and > while I > > > > was gone, my officemate Peter (Moore) took my code and fixed the > problem, > > > > plus he put it into RCS. I gave that to Sam and that's the versio= n > that > > > > went out in 4.1C and beyond. > > > > > > > > Clem > > > > > > > > > > > > ??? > > > > ??? > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 9:29???AM Dan Cross > wrote: > > > > > > > >> I'm curious if anyone has any history they can share about the BSD > > > >> "talk" program. > > > >> > > > >> I was fond of this back when it was still (relatively) common, but > > > >> given the way it's architected I definitely see why it fell out of > use > > > >> as the Internet grew. Still, does anybody know what the history > behind > > > >> it is? Initially, I thought it was written by Mike Karels, but th= at > > > >> was just my speculation from SCCS spelunking, and looking at the > > > >> sources from 4.2, I see RCS header strings that indicate it was > > > >> written by "moore" (Peter Moore?). talk.c says, "Written by Kipp > > > >> Hickman". > > > >> > > > >> It seems to have arrived pretty early on with respect to the > > > >> introduction of TCP/IP in BSD: the README alludes to some things > > > >> coming up in 4.1c. Clem, you seem to have had a hand in it, and ar= e > > > >> credited (along with Peter Moore) for making it work on 4.1a. > > > >> > > > >> So I guess the question is, what was the motivation? Was it just t= o > > > >> have a more pleasing user-to-user communications experience, or wa= s > > > >> discussion across the network an explicit goal? There's a note in > > > >> talk.c ("Modified to run between hosts by Peter Moore, 8/19/82") > that > > > >> suggests this wasn't the original intent. Who thought up the > > > >> character-at-a-time display mode? > > > >> > > > >> Thanks for any insights. > > > >> > > > >> - Dan C. > > > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > --- > > Larry McVoy Retired to fishing > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat > --00000000000028a9f306293fee6b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I tried to talk to my friends at New Mexico Tech when I w= as working at the Wollongong Group in Palo Alto in 89. It sucked too bad to= do since TWG had a badle congested 9600 baud line...

=
Warner

On Sat, Dec 14, 2= 024, 11:04=E2=80=AFAM <arnold@skee= ve.com> wrote:
When my wife = and I were dating, she was at U Penn in Philadelphia
and I was at Emory in Atlanta. We occasionally used talk to
chat in real time. :-) This was in 1989.

Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

> I loved talk when CS was running BSD on a VAX.=C2=A0 You could see who= was on
> and talk them.=C2=A0 Very handy and it was sort of social.
>
> It's crazy how things were back then, open ports listening for all= sorts
> of things.=C2=A0 I think we were pretty unaware of how nasty the inter= net would
> get.
>
> On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 10:22:22AM -0500, Clem Cole wrote:
> > As for the motivation -- it was simple.=C2=A0 UCB is on a hill.= =C2=A0 I lived at the
> > base of hill and I only wanted to walk up it once a day.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0Our office was a
> > big pool of about 20 of us next to the CAD machine room on the se= cond floor
> > of Cory Hall.=C2=A0 Somebody was usually in the office most night= s, but not
> > everyone.=C2=A0 =C2=A0We all had modems and terminals at home, bu= t only one phone
> > line.=C2=A0 We had 3 Vaxes in the CAD group, plus my Array Proces= sor.=C2=A0 =C2=A0So I
> > wanted to be able to ask someone like Peter or TQ to reset the AP= for me if
> > I hosed it when I was working from home when I was debugging it. = Plus
> > the obvious social aspects -- "hey you want go get a Pizza/B= eer etc..."
> > But since we might be working on a different system, Kipps' h= ack was
> > useless.
> > ???
> > ???
> > ???
> > ???
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 10:14???AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com>= wrote:
> >
> > > Yes -- I can give this history.
> > > Kipp wrote an early version for 4.1BSD - but it is not the v= ersion in the
> > > releases. It ran on Ernie and did not do as much.
> > > I had used a different program on the PDP-10's and the A= RPANET and I
> > > started over when Joy added sockets for 4.1A. I also made th= e infamous use
> > > of vax integers instead of network integers (and I knew bett= er - but really
> > > did not think about until a few years later when I was at Ma= sscomp and
> > > compiled it for the 68000 -- ugh).=C2=A0 That version still = had a couple of bugs
> > > in it (i.e. hung in the 4.1A networking code occasionally), = but worked well
> > > enough on the CAD systems.=C2=A0 I went away to a USENIX con= ference and while I
> > > was gone, my officemate=C2=A0 Peter (Moore) took my code and= fixed the problem,
> > > plus he put it into=C2=A0 RCS.=C2=A0 I gave that to Sam and = that's the version that
> > > went out in 4.1C and beyond.
> > >
> > > Clem
> > >
> > >
> > > ???
> > > ???
> > >
> > > On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 9:29???AM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.c= om> wrote:
> > >
> > >> I'm curious if anyone has any history they can share= about the BSD
> > >> "talk" program.
> > >>
> > >> I was fond of this back when it was still (relatively) c= ommon, but
> > >> given the way it's architected I definitely see why = it fell out of use
> > >> as the Internet grew. Still, does anybody know what the = history behind
> > >> it is?=C2=A0 Initially, I thought it was written by Mike= Karels, but that
> > >> was just my speculation from SCCS spelunking, and lookin= g at the
> > >> sources from 4.2, I see RCS header strings that indicate= it was
> > >> written by "moore" (Peter Moore?).=C2=A0 talk.= c says, "Written by Kipp
> > >> Hickman".
> > >>
> > >> It seems to have arrived pretty early on with respect to= the
> > >> introduction of TCP/IP in BSD: the README alludes to som= e things
> > >> coming up in 4.1c. Clem, you seem to have had a hand in = it, and are
> > >> credited (along with Peter Moore) for making it work on = 4.1a.
> > >>
> > >> So I guess the question is, what was the motivation? Was= it just to
> > >> have a more pleasing user-to-user communications experie= nce, or was
> > >> discussion across the network an explicit goal? There= 9;s a note in
> > >> talk.c ("Modified to run between hosts by Peter Moo= re, 8/19/82") that
> > >> suggests this wasn't the original intent. Who though= t up the
> > >> character-at-a-time display mode?
> > >>
> > >> Thanks for any insights.
> > >>
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Dan C.
> > >>
> > >
>
> --
> ---
> Larry McVoy=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Retired to fishing= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/bo= at
--00000000000028a9f306293fee6b--