From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 4566 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2021 14:55:52 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 14 Jul 2021 14:55:52 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 65A8B9C29E; Thu, 15 Jul 2021 00:55:50 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6832895038; Thu, 15 Jul 2021 00:55:08 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b="RsmsfARx"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 54B7D95038; Thu, 15 Jul 2021 00:55:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f182.google.com (mail-qk1-f182.google.com [209.85.222.182]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD08394566 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2021 00:55:03 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f182.google.com with SMTP id r125so1832976qkf.1 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2021 07:55:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JMw7wEJQHS7Vq1UFzfl91dBsfVHaOyeMSprpknxgT8c=; b=RsmsfARxL38rPqG1q6Bi0ZYAacTEejGH+UAmnOX349ITIRb8sk52z0HfaoVRuMZMCT AOP194f8ZWODNAl5qgRomGcI7R7ZeLy3yN27y2hP+3PLKThYLLAHvFvvH7M+80bq3rMa tfjPt5UGpmMhVzkAzqCih3UtCmVmEjRNTRZR932X9fD1NIkkPVlJHeQ6e/Qeeu7/Gn70 q4fTGrnQeHJoKdelen5pXAEuWWAtf8+gswo2gwjyF3TvDPyscHZRro1/oAzWRiQuaLCJ U6zb3Jc0Hu0qH7YRZkI5xKTvuOAA1iHMe8wzRMiYC/30RwQo1kM9Qzsfev+oyrqVIGRJ 4lfg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JMw7wEJQHS7Vq1UFzfl91dBsfVHaOyeMSprpknxgT8c=; b=eXMspZKX+Nk/p0vL4QBKj+4cri1QrPj8ZdH/rFURqNvRX9pRqRnt/rCgp92vFKcEJQ /XvWm627LEoTKpwT4RTxfs6qV7w8L6RvXgPAZbnXNdfQO6siSV1FCUQSDEJvn2WETOcl lkhuvYZWth4XD3YJ9WLK6ehOmcs6/EgGf9BoSUSNLxrDdRkk+FnVjGXfouK2ZBg3JIIk zpEvrfzB2Dq2KSjdSi9BA/0c/5a2Ubk6mrY0E3Rfu+pVleEakQZ6o4EmLL0GU9gOGTEf 39cnQfDeRYY//zpRn+DkKdQhqgB3Y17fXHsHuo3w8n1rkWXrZo6o6OJc3XWBetFURvpG DqnA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531eVzdJctUFA6ro8GsosAsupf3a/VI7+rsZqlQE7re0XZ1R3Tlf m+8cyKRGgm7aqoIJjN+4MZANM4Qucs5l/ElQjAQw2Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw4Zk2gnTs12T9lCDvKpvCkkhc72QdNlrgaJq/8unO1ZdBhI9/ZGbj77G89zp6InUuQbKunYJfmmWGSpyyEdoM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:e09:: with SMTP id y9mr10218328qkm.359.1626274502653; Wed, 14 Jul 2021 07:55:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <213a4c11-3ab2-4b4a-8d6b-b52105a19711@localhost> <61a16b78-fa11-49d3-8a62-a840e8b49d3e@localhost> <7wtukxtgag.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <20210714140910.GZ15842@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20210714140910.GZ15842@mcvoy.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 08:54:51 -0600 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000009cb3e05c7168ad1" Subject: Re: [TUHS] 386BSD released X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000009cb3e05c7168ad1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 8:10 AM Larry McVoy wrote: > On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 09:07:19AM +0000, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > Michael Kj??rling wrote: > > > And all this, of course, ignoring the other issue of what might be > > > considered a "start to the open source operating system movement", > > > given that even development of GNU was well underway by the time the > > > Linux kernel got started (having been worked on since early 1984) > > > > GNU planned to adopt TRIX which was developed at MIT in the mid 1980s. > > I don't know its exact distribution terms, but Wipikedia says "open > > source" so it was possibly in that general vicinity. > > > > Arguably ancient PDP-10 operating systems like ITS, WAITS, TENEX were > > somewhat "open" and "free", but it's not a clear cut case. > > X10 and X11 predate all of this and at least X11 is open source. > The X10R3 license sure looks like a standard MIT license. The other license statements that were included also read very much like open source, or at least a strong intention of being open source, absent any drafting flaws. Copyright 1985 by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its documentation for any purpose and without fee is hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that both that copyright notice and this permission notice appear in supporting documentation, and that the name of M.I.T. not be used in advertising or publicity pertaining to distribution of the software without specific, written prior permission. M.I.T. makes no representations about the suitability of this software for any purpose. It is provided "as is" without express or implied warranty. This software is not subject to any license of the American Telephone and Telegraph Company or of the Regents of the University of California. Although uwm did have the somewhat longer: /************************************************************************ * * * Copyright (c) 1986 by * * Digital Equipment Corporation, Maynard, MA * * All Rights Reserved. * * * * Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software * * and its documentation is hereby granted only to licensees of * * The Regents of the University of California pursuant to their * * license agreement for the Berkeley Software Distribution * * provided that the following appears on all copies. * * * * "LICENSED FROM DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION * * COPYRIGHT (C) 1986 * * DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION * * MAYNARD, MA * * ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. * * * * THE INFORMATION IN THIS SOFTWARE IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE WITHOUT * * NOTICE AND SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS A COMMITMENT BY DIGITAL * * EQUIPMENT CORPORATION. DIGITAL MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS * * ABOUT SUITABILITY OF THIS SOFTWARE FOR ANY PURPOSE. IT IS * * SUPPLIED "AS IS" WITHOUT EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTY. * * * * IF THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA OR ITS LICENSEES MODIFY * * THE SOFTWARE IN A MANNER CREATING DERIVATIVE COPYRIGHT * * RIGHTS APPROPRIATE COPYRIGHT LEGENDS MAY BE PLACED ON THE * * DERIVATIVE WORK IN ADDITION TO THAT SET FORTH ABOVE." * * * ************************************************************************/ This is the earliest copy of X10 I could find, pegging the date at around 1985, which predates Linux by half a dozen years. Warner --00000000000009cb3e05c7168ad1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 8:10 AM Larry= McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
<= /div>
On Wed, Jul 14, 2021= at 09:07:19AM +0000, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> Michael Kj??rling wrote:
> > And all this, of course, ignoring the other issue of what might b= e
> > considered a "start to the open source operating system move= ment",
> > given that even development of GNU was well underway by the time = the
> > Linux kernel got started (having been worked on since early 1984)=
>
> GNU planned to adopt TRIX which was developed at MIT in the mid 1980s.=
> I don't know its exact distribution terms, but Wipikedia says &quo= t;open
> source" so it was possibly in that general vicinity.
>
> Arguably ancient PDP-10 operating systems like ITS, WAITS, TENEX were<= br> > somewhat "open" and "free", but it's not a cle= ar cut case.

X10 and X11 predate all of this and at least X11 is open source.

The X10R3 license sure looks like a standard MIT = license. The other license
statements that were included also rea= d very much like open source, or
at least a strong intention of b= eing open source, absent any drafting flaws.

Copyr= ight 1985 by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Permission to= use, copy, modify, and distribute this
software and its documentation f= or any purpose and without
fee is hereby granted, provided that the abov= e copyright
notice appear in all copies and that both that copyright
= notice and this permission notice appear in supporting
documentation, an= d that the name of M.I.T. not be used in
advertising or publicity pertai= ning to distribution of the
software without specific, written prior per= mission.
M.I.T. makes no representations about the suitability of
thi= s software for any purpose.=C2=A0 It is provided "as is"
witho= ut express or implied warranty.

This software is not subject to any = license of the American
Telephone and Telegraph Company or of the Regent= s of the
University of California.

Although= uwm did have the somewhat longer:

/**************= **********************************************************
=C2=A0* =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*
=C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Copyright (c) 1986 by =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 *=
=C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Digital Equipme= nt Corporation, Maynard, MA =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0*
=C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 All Rights Reserved. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 *
=C2=A0* =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*
=C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Permission to use, copy, = modify, and distribute this software =C2=A0 *
=C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0and its documentation is hereby granted only to licensees of =C2=A0 =C2= =A0*
=C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The Regents of the University of Califo= rnia pursuant to their =C2=A0 *
=C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0license agre= ement for the Berkeley Software Distribution =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0provided that the following appears on all co= pies. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*
=C2=A0* =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*
=C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quo= t;LICENSED FROM DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*
=C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0COPYRIGHT (C) 1986 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0*
=C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*
=C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 MAYNARD, MA= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*
=C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 *
=C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*
=C2=A0* = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0THE INFORMATION IN THIS SOFTWARE IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE W= ITHOUT =C2=A0 *
=C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0NOTICE AND SHOULD NOT BE CON= STRUED AS A COMMITMENT BY DIGITAL =C2=A0 *
=C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0E= QUIPMENT CORPORATION.=C2=A0 DIGITAL MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0*
=C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ABOUT SUITABILITY OF THIS SOF= TWARE FOR ANY PURPOSE. IT IS =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 *
=C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0SUPPLIED "AS IS" WITHOUT EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTY. = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 *
=C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*
= =C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IF THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA OR ITS LICENSEE= S MODIFY =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 *
=C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0THE S= OFTWARE IN A MANNER CREATING DERIVATIVE COPYRIGHT =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0*
=C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RIGHTS APPROPRIATE COPYRIGHT LEG= ENDS MAY BE PLACED ON THE =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 *
=C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0DERIVATIVE WORK IN ADDITION TO THAT SET FORTH ABOVE." =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 *
=C2=A0* =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*
=C2=A0**= **********************************************************************/
=

This is the earliest copy of X10 I could find, pe= gging the date at around 1985, which
predates Linux by half a doz= en years.

Warner
--00000000000009cb3e05c7168ad1--