From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 4154 invoked from network); 9 Aug 2022 20:20:51 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 9 Aug 2022 20:20:51 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 166E240139; Wed, 10 Aug 2022 06:20:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f51.google.com (mail-vs1-f51.google.com [209.85.217.51]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5386540135 for ; Wed, 10 Aug 2022 06:20:41 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f51.google.com with SMTP id 125so13090154vsd.5 for ; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 13:20:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc; bh=otbXzuQ49UeVxt3vUkSc5eklNUJUQ2ihnF5XzFGFPsA=; b=OTOlVpOe4+zqfm//d6uNWEcXx/48QWiCsx2LmeL+J00qb10O7H0UqAX3/rVJmpHmRI PHfrs9jA2vGCv/Hd8lMpWx43JATySDFVEjZgqdfvu9Ay3cgrPNF/n30bt9emKlYW8ls3 VfEqEl7K4anUOBP1JY/kXE/TnIjRgIopyG9KFw6EJo+Ra0jqB5bba6TPp5q5/2OFyUS9 BPQPEPe0GJihIqTbnyoDnZ1fxzNlHt43q7EBZcSPp8Qqi45elg2EkxT//umbdVyZYovW AgoINRjlYOMQW0x/kLMewyrRouMM1TM0TFaWdnSjTkLQEHqpCuIQ2fNv2KV3KY2uNCn4 bSeA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc; bh=otbXzuQ49UeVxt3vUkSc5eklNUJUQ2ihnF5XzFGFPsA=; b=WYEEqpanwcd4HOpYrdMhLLZKV20qeayZwqbuR46sTfGjcbD4OcwlbubOCcM1gs9pHv kownC85GQD48RvZSuVcs5eFcru9v9cweI+dUnnX0aaeTySngbv7utQx+DmSTm6i6577k nKVbwvPlG00mHX2wt/5fStErP+D6QWryQH1RXxsCLtoIRYhfldI2SFiH8lXMgdC4w+Ys CyFf1ulYJfXaWdIYeQyeaChKpmtTKLX0er93+1G9DrLCjtvG8uvSUe+0kkoQ48JcXxsM Pi6wvYreSTJRfedIJSRVH6NEvUGFnprs8daqcT2y1Cc13cKsQfJOMHF7CF7YXiom+Euf V2lg== X-Gm-Message-State: ACgBeo0wkuhLMXiafAONazNqTxHJkw8P+urW1FVD1YyXSllWWR8S+YOq S1AHOhNCVPqevqa2q2VWzNC+oGBhraHu0MhWu1b4C0iBgH4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA6agR7924j+4iDgvUd2HW0v6EoOsTDnzzIgvIw5gbfbIG/ijK0ekIG7sp1U66o2P2Qayw4FUtxZdvsVabY2x0MYkTY= X-Received: by 2002:a67:fdce:0:b0:388:485c:889c with SMTP id l14-20020a67fdce000000b00388485c889cmr9900157vsq.38.1660076380324; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 13:19:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220809174232.A882C18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20220809184910.GC21168@mcvoy.com> <092e2eda-9b02-39a9-9de3-8343cd337d78@earthlink.net> <20220809190028.GD21168@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2022 14:19:29 -0600 Message-ID: To: Marshall Conover Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f31cd905e5d4a652" Message-ID-Hash: D2WBKZU4BAGUZWEIPQ6I6RT5B43MGQ7F X-Message-ID-Hash: D2WBKZU4BAGUZWEIPQ6I6RT5B43MGQ7F X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Tom Teixeira , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: SNOBOL and RATSNO List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000f31cd905e5d4a652 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 1:23 PM Marshall Conover wrote: > > I've always believed that pic was so well designed > because it took a day to get the print out (back then), so you had to > have a language where you could see what it was doing. > > > I'll confess: I was never very good at bench checking batch programs, > but only had at most a handful of assignments in college: generally cycles > were cheap on time-sharing systems and I quickly adapted to interactive > debugging. > > Along these lines, if I'm understanding correctly, my hunch would be > that part of the precision being discussed was born out of necessity. > When you can't debug interactively, you're forced to be precise with > your changes, influencing how you think. On the flip side, when > interactive development is an option, there's an easy route to take - > and so that's what ends up informing those developmer's thought > patterns. > > I think it's possible that if you were to force a new generation to > only be able to iterate once a day, you may end up with a new > generation with that precision. Perhaps material for a fun experiment > for the teachers on the list. > I think it was a confluence of many things. Programs had to be smaller (bigger ones didn't fit). Interactive terminals were non-existant or extremely limited (80x24). Printing out listings and 'desk checking' the output was something you had plenty of time to do. Computing budgets were tiny: You had only so many $$$ for your runs and if you made too many, you'd run out of $$$ before you were done (more applicable as a student than as a professional post school though). Consequently your time was plentiful and computer time was scarce. Plus people from that generation tended to think globally and didn't compartmentalize as much as is done today (where people are told that everything below you in the stack can be considered hardware don't worry about how it works). The systems were also simpler to program, since all the 'go fast' caveats you have to cope with in todays system didn't exists, which also encourage global thinking. Plus, computer programmers tended to be the best and the brightest because they were the only ones that could (a) afford to undertake their study and (b) the only ones that didn't wash out of very demanding university programs. Plus companies tended to only trust their super expensive machines to the best and the brightest, further enhancing their skills (which we now know are built with repetition) while the less bright tended to be relegated to other machines with fewer opportunities. (yes, I know the previous paragraph way over-generalizes a very complex and subtle dynamic that was at play, hence 'tendency' rather than some other more definite word). Warner > Cheers, > > Marshall > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 3:01 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > > > > On Tue, Aug 09, 2022 at 02:54:08PM -0400, Tom Teixeira wrote: > > > On 8/9/22 2:49 PM, Larry McVoy wrote: > > > >On Tue, Aug 09, 2022 at 01:42:32PM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > >> > From: Rob Pike > > > >> > > > >> > I still marvel at the productivity and precision of his > generatio > > > >> > > > >>We noticed the same thing happening in the IETF, as the number of > people > > > >>working on networking went up. The explanation is really quite > simple, once > > > >>you think about it a bit. > > > >> > > > >>If you have a very small group, it is quite possible to have a very > high > > > >>level. (Not if it's selected randomly, of course; there has to be > some > > > >>sorting function.) However, as the group gets much larger, it is > > > >>_necessarily_ much more 'average' in the skill/etc level of its > members. > > > >I used to complain about this at Sun and was dryly told "We get it, > > > >Larry, you are yeast. You need flour to make bread." > > > > > > > >And as time went on, I found that the smart people tended to find each > > > >other. So it was fine. > > > > > > > >It is more fun when it is a highly curated group of smart people. > Made > > > >me work hard to keep up. > > > > > > Put another way, "If you're always the smartest person in the room, > you're > > > spending your time in the wrong rooms." > > > > I was usually the dumbest one in the room, I found the right rooms :-) > > > > I personally like being "dumb", the other people just make you want to > > work harder to reach their level. Back when I used to play pool pretty > > seriously, I always tried to play people better than me. You get lazy > > if you are the best. > > > > -- > > --- > > Larry McVoy Retired to fishing > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat > --000000000000f31cd905e5d4a652 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 1:23 PM Marsha= ll Conover <marzhall.o@gmail.com= > wrote:
= > I've always believed that pic was so well designed
because it took a day to get the print out (back then), so you had to
have a language where you could see what it was doing.

> I'll confess: I was never very good at bench checking batch progra= ms, but only had at most a handful of assignments in college: generally cyc= les were cheap on time-sharing systems and I quickly adapted to interactive= debugging.

Along these lines, if I'm understanding correctly, my hunch would be that part of the precision being discussed was born out of necessity.
When you can't debug interactively, you're forced to be precise wit= h
your changes, influencing how you think. On the flip side, when
interactive development is an option, there's an easy route to take - and so that's what ends up informing those developmer's thought
patterns.

I think it's possible that if you were to force a new generation to
only be able to iterate once a day, you may end up with a new
generation with that precision. Perhaps material for a fun experiment
for the teachers on the list.

I think i= t was a confluence of many things. Programs had to be smaller (bigger ones = didn't fit).
Interactive terminals were non-existant=C2=A0or = extremely limited (80x24). Printing out
listings and 'desk ch= ecking' the output was something you had plenty of time to do.
Computing budgets were tiny: You had only so many $$$ for your runs and i= f you made
too many, you'd run out of $$$ before you were don= e (more applicable as a student than
as a professional post schoo= l though). Consequently your time was plentiful and
computer time= was scarce. Plus people from that generation tended to think globally
and didn't compartmentalize as much as is done today (where peopl= e are told that
everything below you in the stack can be consider= ed hardware don't worry about
how it works). The systems were= also simpler to program, since all the 'go fast'
caveats= you have to cope with in todays system didn't exists, which also encou= rage
global thinking.

Plus, computer pro= grammers tended to be the best and the brightest because
they wer= e the only ones that could (a) afford to undertake their study and (b) the<= /div>
only ones that didn't wash out of very demanding university p= rograms. Plus companies
tended to only trust their super expensiv= e machines to the best and the brightest,
further enhancing their= skills (which we now know are built with repetition) while the
l= ess bright tended to be relegated to other machines with fewer opportunitie= s.

(yes, I know the previous paragraph way over-ge= neralizes a very complex and
subtle dynamic that was at play, hen= ce 'tendency' rather than some other more
definite word).=

Warner
=C2=A0
Cheers,

Marshall

On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 3:01 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Aug 09, 2022 at 02:54:08PM -0400, Tom Teixeira wrote:
> > On 8/9/22 2:49 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > >On Tue, Aug 09, 2022 at 01:42:32PM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote:=
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> From: Rob Pike
> > >>
> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> I still marvel at the productivi= ty and precision of his generatio
> > >>
> > >>We noticed the same thing happening in the IETF, as the n= umber of people
> > >>working on networking went up. The explanation is really = quite simple, once
> > >>you think about it a bit.
> > >>
> > >>If you have a very small group, it is quite possible to h= ave a very high
> > >>level. (Not if it's selected randomly, of course; the= re has to be some
> > >>sorting function.) However, as the group gets much larger= , it is
> > >>_necessarily_ much more 'average' in the skill/et= c level of its members.
> > >I used to complain about this at Sun and was dryly told "= ;We get it,
> > >Larry, you are yeast.=C2=A0 You need flour to make bread.&quo= t;
> > >
> > >And as time went on, I found that the smart people tended to = find each
> > >other.=C2=A0 So it was fine.
> > >
> > >It is more fun when it is a highly curated group of smart peo= ple.=C2=A0 Made
> > >me work hard to keep up.
> >
> > Put another way, "If you're always the smartest person i= n the room, you're
> > spending your time in the wrong rooms."
>
> I was usually the dumbest one in the room, I found the right rooms :-)=
>
> I personally like being "dumb", the other people just make y= ou want to
> work harder to reach their level.=C2=A0 Back when I used to play pool = pretty
> seriously, I always tried to play people better than me.=C2=A0 You get= lazy
> if you are the best.
>
> --
> ---
> Larry McVoy=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Retired to fishing= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat
--000000000000f31cd905e5d4a652--