From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 22213 invoked from network); 16 Mar 2023 00:29:31 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 16 Mar 2023 00:29:31 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28B6F4134E; Thu, 16 Mar 2023 10:29:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ed1-x530.google.com (mail-ed1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::530]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDB674134D for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2023 10:29:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ed1-x530.google.com with SMTP id o12so1248332edb.9 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 17:29:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; t=1678926558; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=b3gd7E08w37z8ooENoVj8VOlMrXeaqYrMWYj+MMn3MA=; b=SUOJOPgaoNtO9k8zg9ruFIIqz1iln1GIrcMc7k8vk1hIrKSpw2vZ6FHQfaO50o70Bs oiJW3pMfPrGGXE1dkkky7V+mcAkn2aMwTl1SQWoH71+T3W4lMT8U9P4Uqe6eHl1RkJyt +ylATI6y88/UiBZXgZkyd32vHksLMFzJKn9zVQORDvHS8II0UJCWtUzFftym9gr6I5Na 3yR4+O1QU5JM0/lOsp5u8bu9RQ2WzrsbBjXfBfv28bSrXs8m/NT+ue70+tlW5fpZTanj zN8UhEGi3Lc/93iGiXgq441/gI8bxYJGrkYzxwoFQ/W/sj7X2YKjnqHWfQeq8OgSi5F4 lk0g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678926558; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=b3gd7E08w37z8ooENoVj8VOlMrXeaqYrMWYj+MMn3MA=; b=pmxpeE+Wszm7iAw/eN5+V0GIS+cGbbCF78ww3HDCAYriXE618Npt7/vh36+Wos79JD XaSC53qoyvrTuZBvslnVpOvk7s8C4oMkdCQnlOiLeFE6OW23cbMavSmE6+PUVMKwsrVM 2LPHVLj0/c3xWC3kKaz5jgzcDaAVe+BlngsqBQQaPJ699h7ZijHIyJOUQNR2yd8fk4rV vQkxbq72nuJ0etwaKkb9yKizChkXZbUXkzXY4HV3CWNZ+q8v7fX8mnm3pVEQDMgckyBH 7Y3Hb/px9clLDqA2C3At31inwy0g3vcKkgnr7V3a7tlcpFKbNO8SqyAD+L9N29UXx1dp +Ydg== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKXY8d+nKSMnTaLrUuYCwtKf/FJKSwmdbjfilpDNtL8CzLQ26yRz oPiotEMBBl6aeEi0csSGgRWv+drSleo+8zc0Cv/cZ2vFwXcvIwVt X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set9utwCkUGwSaRnq61eoRAqcZFRHFIerRjNBVMm3C+oUlIjjhk/kmmMcXzFe/gQLE9QEPu2MT5DWRq/bquZOUJs= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:98c7:b0:888:6294:a1fd with SMTP id kd7-20020a17090798c700b008886294a1fdmr4283629ejc.2.1678926557757; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 17:29:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230315115947.A0CC418C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <984bc9a1-70ea-4032-be21-b99f8d40e897@app.fastmail.com> <20230315212201.GY27975@mcvoy.com> <25b24f92-49a6-626f-18c4-08c2d8ba7876@makerlisp.com> In-Reply-To: <25b24f92-49a6-626f-18c4-08c2d8ba7876@makerlisp.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 18:29:06 -0600 Message-ID: To: Luther Johnson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001452e605f6f98d65" Message-ID-Hash: AZKQFETRHOWXIDQJFI5SUPR443S2ZVWR X-Message-ID-Hash: AZKQFETRHOWXIDQJFI5SUPR443S2ZVWR X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: UNIX System V Release 2.2 gdts Vax-780 List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000001452e605f6f98d65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 15, 2023, 5:42 PM Luther Johnson wrote: > I think the real risk is not measured in dollars, but potential damage to > reputations, ill will, the perception that it's not legal or kosher, etc. > Yea. However, there could be novel, perhaps untested, legal theories one could use in this circumstance. THE LAW often times isn't cut and died like engineering. In this case one could likely argue fair use because the purpose is educational and only a small portion of the source is ever disclosed at any time. One look no further than google books to see this working out. They won cases with similar broad stroke outlines, though they had the resources to win... My earlier analysis was more on the worst case financial side of things. > I completely understand this well-founded caution. As do I, to be honest. However if anyone was interested in approaching the license holders and > seeing if licenses could be obtained or purchased, I'm interested in that= . > Yea. Only way I see that working is buying the rights outright... I suspect too few licenses would be sold to recoup even a modest amount of effort it would take. I'd bet it would only be a modest sum at this point.. Warner On 03/15/2023 04:30 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 3:56=E2=80=AFPM steve jenkin > wrote: > >> "What =E2=80=9Cuses=E2=80=9D would SysV codebase have now?" may be a bet= ter Q. >> > > A System V release 2 might have very limited use (old VAXen are all it ra= n > on from > AT&T though there were at least a few ports: 68k for sure). > > The successor code base of OpenIndiana which forked from OpenSolaris whic= h > was System Vr4 plus a bunch... And that's open... illumos is still using > that for its distribution... They'd have been totally dead, imho, were it > not for OpenZFS using illumos for so long as the reference platform (that= 's > changed, so now Linux and FreeBSD are the reference platforms, though one > of those two is more equal than the other). > > But the successor code base being open isn't quite the same as System V > being open. There's no 'orphan exception' or 'abandonware rider' that wou= ld > allow us to distribute this without any legal risk. > > But there's the rub: what's the legal risk. The legal risk here is that > somebody could show up and assert they have rights to the software, and > that we're distributing it illegally. Actual damages likely are near $0 > these days, but statutory damages could become quite excessive. But to ge= t > damages, one would likely need a lot of money to fight it, and there's no= t > any kind of real revenue stream from System V today (let alone from Syste= m > V r2). Plus, were this successfully prosecuted, it's not like that would > increase that revenue stream: TUHS has no assets, so the current IP owner > would have to somehow assess there was blood to be had from this stone, > which is unlikely... So, how do you rate the risk of a low-probability, > high damage outcome vs the near certainty of a no-damage outcome. Since > it's none of our butt's but Warren's, he gets to decide his comfort zone > here. :) > > So the risk of adverse consequences is likely low, but not zero were we t= o > distribute this without a license to do so. There's plenty of others that > are doing so today, but that's between the others and whatever IP owners > > Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, and this isn't legal advice... > > Warner > > > --0000000000001452e605f6f98d65 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Mar 15, 2023, 5:42 PM Luther Johnson <luther@makerlisp.com> wrote:
<= /div>
=20 =20 =20

I think the real risk is not measured in dollars, but potential damage to reputations, ill will, the perception that it's not legal or kosher, etc.

Yea. However, there could be novel, perhaps untested, legal theor= ies one could use in this circumstance. THE LAW often times isn't cut a= nd died like engineering.=C2=A0

In this case one could likely argue fair use because the purpose = is educational and only a small portion of the source is ever disclosed at = any time. One look no further than google books to see this working out. Th= ey won cases with similar broad stroke outlines, though they had the resour= ces to win...

My earlier= analysis was more on the worst case financial side of things.

> I completely understand this we= ll-founded caution.

As d= o I, to be honest.=C2=A0

However if anyone was interested in approaching the license holders and seeing if licenses could be obtained or purchased, I'm interested in that.

Yea. Only way I see that working is buying the= rights outright... I suspect too few licenses would be sold to recoup even= a modest amount of effort it would take. I'd bet it would only be a mo= dest sum at this point..=C2=A0

Warner

On 03/15/2023 04:30 PM, Warner Losh wrote:


On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 3:56=E2=80=AFPM steve jenkin <sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au= > wrote:
"What =E2= =80=9Cuses=E2=80=9D would SysV codebase have now?" may be a better Q.

A System V release 2 might have very limited use (old VAXen are all it ran on from
AT&T though there were at least a few ports: 68k for sure).

The successor code base of OpenIndiana which forked from OpenSolaris which was System Vr4 plus a bunch... And that's open... illumos is still using that for its distribution... They'd have been totally dead, imho, were it not for OpenZF= S using illumos for so long as the reference platform (that's changed, so now Linux and FreeBSD are the reference platforms, though one of those two is more equal than the other).

But the successor code base being open isn't quite the same as System V being open. There's no 'orphan excepti= on' or 'abandonware rider' that would allow us to distribut= e this without any legal risk.

But there's the rub: what's the legal risk.=C2=A0The= legal risk here is that somebody could show up and assert they have rights to the software, and that we're distributing it illegally. Actual damages likely are near $0 these days, but statutory damages could become quite excessive. But to get damages, one would likely need a lot of money to fight it, and there's not any kind of real revenue stream from System V today (let alone from System V r2). Plus, were this successfully prosecuted, it's not like that would increase that revenue stream: TUHS has no assets, so the current IP owner would have to somehow assess there was blood to be had from this stone, which is unlikely... So, how do you rate the risk of a low-probability, high damage outcome vs the near certainty of a no-damage outcome. Since it's none of our butt's but Warren's, he gets to decide his comfort = zone here. :)

So the risk of adverse consequences is likely low, but not zero were we to distribute this without a license to do so. There's plenty of others that are doing so today, but that's between the others and whatever IP owners=C2=A0

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, and this isn't legal advice...

Warner


--0000000000001452e605f6f98d65--