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From: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>
To: Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com>
Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <tuhs@tuhs.org>
Subject: [TUHS] Re: FD 2
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 11:37:42 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CANCZdfp2SK+gHNgoybVd3asYfLkNiwt539zdNrgwPSKzK=j38Q@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2MUWZjQw1O=OGgtf_g8VYoE4ZN8cPyH8FFXaToPuYuZUQ@mail.gmail.com>

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On Sat, Jan 21, 2023, 11:26 AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Jan 21, 2023 at 12:50 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Further digging shows v6 is quite similar.
>>
> As I said, by then they know it's an issue and the fd 2 has been
> introduced.   The place to look is not the utilities, but the shell itself
> and what the kernel is doing in newproc et al for the tty handler.
>

The utilities were all using printf so even if the concept was there, it
wasn't widely used.

I'll take a longer look, including these places..  though I'm not sure I
see the connection to the tty driver...

V7 revamps everything, with printf changed to a routine that writes to
>> stderr. Each program did this differently.
>>
> IMO: Sort of two different things >>I think<<. They are related - the idea
> ( what the OS supplied to each process), as opposed to what/how each
> utility handled it.
>

Yea. Mostly i think each program had a different wrapper around stderr to
minimize changes to the program...

With typesetter C -- we get dmr's new stdio library (libS.a) replacing
> Lesk's portable C library.  This was released independent of V6 as what DEC
> would have called a 'layered product"  that ran on top of V6.    As I said,
> this is the language that Dennis and Brian describe in K&R (version 1).
>

Do we have extant copies of that? So far I have see the kernel patches that
were "leaked" but not the rest of it.

With what was becoming UNIX/TS -- which don't seem to have a formal release
> -- we get what we all think of as the V7 kernel, Bourne's new shell and the
> new and updated tools suite as part of the system
>

Yea.

So with V7, as you point out, most, but not all of the utilities have been
> updated to start using the new compiler (since by then Lesk library is not
> included), If the code were recompiled, that code would have had to used
> the new FILE * structure over the small integer fd, for the printf family.
>  With V6 there were still a handful of utilities in assembler (like snoball
> IIRC), but by V7 I think most of them had been culled.
>
> And while your point is that you need to look at what each utility
> implemented, >>I believe<< that the key to Ron's question is what the shell
> and the kernel supplied [dates the idea], and >>then<< if the utility
> obeyed the new fd 2 as the error file is when it starts to be more formally
> enforced. So any further hunting should start there I would think.
>

Yea. Like many things, there was a transition... the most important bit is
the shell. And that was more tricky to read through with the phone at
breakfast...

Warner


Clem
>
>
>
>>
>> Granted, this is a small sample size. There wasn't a huge uptake of
>> stderr/fd2 in v6 it seems, but v7 looks like it had a pass over the code to
>> at least try for all errors going to fd2.
>>
>> Warner
>>
>>
>>> Warner
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 5:46 PM ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I am trying to remember when fd 2 (aka stderr) became a thing. I have
>>>>> a vague memory that it was post-v6 but that may be way off.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ᐧ
>

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  reply	other threads:[~2023-01-21 18:39 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 69+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2023-01-20 22:44 [TUHS] " ron minnich
2023-01-20 22:54 ` [TUHS] " G. Branden Robinson
2023-01-20 22:56 ` Rob Pike
2023-01-20 23:11   ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-20 23:14     ` Rob Pike
2023-01-20 23:22       ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-20 23:13 ` Douglas McIlroy
2023-01-21  3:37 ` Jon Steinhart
2023-01-21 15:42 ` Clem Cole
2023-01-21 17:34   ` Warner Losh
2023-01-21 17:50     ` Warner Losh
2023-01-21 18:26       ` Clem Cole
2023-01-21 18:37         ` Warner Losh [this message]
2023-01-22 11:05           ` Jonathan Gray
2023-01-22 21:23           ` Warner Losh
2023-01-22 22:10             ` ron minnich
2023-01-23  7:30             ` arnold
2023-01-23  8:32               ` James Johnston
2023-01-23  8:58                 ` G. Branden Robinson
2023-01-23 11:49                   ` Brantley Coile
2023-01-23 14:25                     ` Ronald Natalie
2023-01-23 17:43                       ` Brantley Coile
2023-01-23 16:59                 ` Douglas McIlroy
2023-01-24  7:21                   ` arnold
2023-01-29 18:51             ` Warner Losh
2023-01-29 19:20               ` Ron Natalie
2023-01-29 20:25                 ` Warner Losh
2023-01-30  7:50                   ` arnold
2023-01-30  8:09                     ` Rob Pike
2023-01-30 15:02                       ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 15:16                         ` Dan Cross
2023-01-30 15:27                           ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 15:35                             ` Dan Cross
2023-01-30 15:45                               ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 16:09                                 ` Dan Cross
2023-01-30 16:18                                   ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 19:03                                     ` Dan Cross
2023-01-30 19:12                                       ` Brantley Coile
2023-01-30 21:24                                       ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 22:15                                         ` Rob Pike
2023-01-30 22:50                                           ` ron minnich
2023-01-30 23:05                                           ` [TUHS] Child of plan9? (Re: " Bakul Shah
2023-01-31  3:19                                             ` [TUHS] " Andrew Warkentin
2023-01-30 16:21                                   ` [TUHS] " Steve Nickolas
2023-01-30 16:27                                     ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 16:32                                       ` ron minnich
2023-01-30 16:40                                       ` Clem Cole
2023-01-30 19:55                                       ` Lawrence Stewart
2023-01-31 21:27                                     ` Dave Horsfall
2023-01-30 16:48                                   ` Theodore Ts'o
2023-01-30 16:57                                   ` Andy Kosela
2023-01-30 17:04                                     ` Warner Losh
2023-01-30 20:38                                       ` Theodore Ts'o
2023-01-30 21:01                                         ` Warner Losh
2023-01-30 21:10                                         ` Clem Cole
2023-01-30 16:03                           ` Bakul Shah
2023-01-30 16:07                             ` Larry McVoy
2023-01-30 16:13                               ` Bakul Shah
2023-01-30 16:22                                 ` Steve Nickolas
2023-01-30 16:17                               ` Dan Cross
2023-01-30 16:18                             ` Ralph Corderoy
2023-01-30 16:41                               ` [TUHS] job control (Re: " Bakul Shah
2023-01-30 19:07                               ` [TUHS] " Dan Cross
2023-01-30 13:26                     ` John Cowan
2023-01-30 14:30                       ` arnold
2023-01-30  0:25                 ` Phil Budne
2023-01-30  2:08                   ` Warner Losh
2023-01-21 18:27     ` Clem Cole
2023-01-22 10:56       ` Jaap Akkerhuis via TUHS

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