From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 28723 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2022 20:56:45 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 3 Nov 2022 20:56:45 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9472841DC4; Fri, 4 Nov 2022 06:56:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ej1-f50.google.com (mail-ej1-f50.google.com [209.85.218.50]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B7C940614 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2022 06:56:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ej1-f50.google.com with SMTP id t25so8522483ejb.8 for ; Thu, 03 Nov 2022 13:56:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=0iFQQ6HRWUtuVvXB5xCVA59luhlodaVhvKA6/SLfz2s=; b=IpYnTKHGBUhLh9YSRQTr8RGVyS1GfOCmJRxqwVrvZNA/N2jTcISDLV6WNnwqVG1maz 17KLyyTt3FtjQPX2T43qug2MzsMCwI4MSseleaceqfrxUktCEZglOWQXmj1vcMkCvYJP rmEw9axIN6CHrm31ly33AojcGknopmI0JGcuPWVM2m9S+sYljNpaJTvyoRE7C5d5j3ur vmVCjU2duR06H7oBINaia+dLVi5SS+calWYMEXvfoXxotTWPZF8oRMEqkKoxjGeCYC5A LLW47ddTyVwnHbyONhwD+y74NvifujLT5mSfeBHD8c8GRMYxqf4M9u1SMIe/42HF0gIx cudA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=0iFQQ6HRWUtuVvXB5xCVA59luhlodaVhvKA6/SLfz2s=; b=idoUAk7oV0B1Ng+v3qw/HDEXj4uyCMJbk7G9B9cFDRHuCWpGM1Edoz6CqAcr18HXsD qDQXPu+okghZmP+dn/QUYfIzUpE6rQTwFzePbXbKn8qTXa5m9HD5ahGWTOMxJmjYrJn9 htDC1T5jimQyRaVcUHZGABdbSRbnQ/4XykYluHDwu/qqlW856s3xzy0FDjk0qM32ozBU sRGjHd1VmVusnSyxGNpOucdslu+Au8VHpgzGNfsL3+3Uplfxep8SwPOnXYy98mpxvqm5 kEFx+sI7euZrjdUdwB8AVRqInVvv3cRof2T8JT2yjNXxCqVvj508jGElI/j5fi4G1beb Rjmg== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf13sv0SUbouBaUuWFhUNKBmv6mVmqxtJqc9jVR2L2uUH35oQM/j Nj96mB9booBYsCwtc43Xag+YN2pXxyJLZVqeddp66A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM439B712VWk2N1/4axCbbZy1gevVd6m0Uww0svUyS6tKrB4YCwddwynZSAEVq4G2cvPN6N6PtXVi8d/xsD6KHk= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:72d2:b0:79e:8082:1326 with SMTP id du18-20020a17090772d200b0079e80821326mr30671605ejc.252.1667508932716; Thu, 03 Nov 2022 13:55:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7b249e68-de74-2c81-32b0-18ecb74a85ec@aueb.gr> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 14:55:20 -0600 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000098443a05ec972d97" Message-ID-Hash: TPQXIQ4TO5HIPLDZUTMFVX3KDPRHGDZB X-Message-ID-Hash: TPQXIQ4TO5HIPLDZUTMFVX3KDPRHGDZB X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: TUHS main list X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: vi in cooked mode? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000098443a05ec972d97 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Nov 3, 2022, 2:28 PM Clem Cole wrote: > > > On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 3:44 PM Diomidis Spinellis wrote: > >> Was I misled? Was there perhaps a hacked version of vi that worked in t= his >> way? >> > I think you may be mixing a few stories ... and features ... > > > v6 vs v7 PDP-11 vs Vax much less vi vs emacs. > Some thoughts ... > > 1.) Emacs came from CMU and only a few years later after the Vax had was > stable (post 4.1BSD) > There were a diversity of emacs clones for unix as well... 2.) emacs was not so much prohibited as it was slow, it needed megabytes of > memory -- that was limit. > The VAX 11/750 with 1MB we had at nmt ran emacs, but not gnu emacs. It was something special off the internet that was less featureful so took less memory. We had to have it since EMACS was popular on the DECsystem 20s we had.. The Vax could handle 15 students on each of the 15 terminals connected to it plus 5 or so coming in via telnet doing emacs compilein 100-500 line CS programs without being too insanely bogged down... < 10 and you didn't notice. 3.) By the time emacs comes on the scene, workstations are showing up, so > you did not have 20 students on a vax to UCB. > Emacs of different flavors predated workstations by a few years though. GNU Emacs 18 dates to when VAXstations, Suns and others were shipping on volume. 4.) Raw mode was a V6 feature for PDP-11, by the time of the Vax the TTY > was using V7 using CBREAK (1/2 cooked) which still allows canonicalizatio= n > All the oddball quirks in tty behavior can be dated to the early 80s to optimize somebody's use case... Warner > =E1=90=A7 > --00000000000098443a05ec972d97 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Nov 3, 2022, 2:28 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:


On Thu, Nov = 3, 2022 at 3:44 PM Diomidis Spinellis <dds@aueb.gr> wrote:
Was I misled?=C2=A0 Was there= perhaps a hacked version of vi that worked in this way?
I think you may be mixing a few stories ... and features = ...


v6 vs v7 PDP-11 vs Vax much less vi vs emacs.=C2=A0
=
Some thoughts ...

1.) Emacs came from CMU and on= ly a few years later after the Vax had was stable (post 4.1BSD)
=

There were a diversity of emacs clones for unix as well...
<= div dir=3D"auto">
2.) emacs was not so much prohibited as it was slow, it needed megabyt= es of memory -- that was limit.
<= /div>

The VAX 11/750 with 1MB = we had at nmt ran emacs, but not gnu emacs. It was something special off th= e internet that was less featureful so took less memory. We had to have it = since EMACS was popular on the DECsystem 20s we had.. The Vax could handle = 15 students on each of the 15 terminals connected to it plus 5 or so coming= in via telnet doing emacs compilein 100-500 line CS programs without being= too insanely bogged down... < 10 and you didn't notice.=C2=A0
=

3.) By the time emacs comes on the scene, workstations are showing up= , so you did not have 20 students on a vax to UCB.
<= /blockquote>

Emacs= of different flavors predated workstations by a few years though. GNU Emac= s 18 dates to when VAXstations, Suns and others were shipping on volume.=C2= =A0

4.) Raw mode was a V6 feature for PDP-11, by the time of the= Vax the TTY was using V7 using CBREAK (1/2 cooked) which still allows cano= nicalization

All the oddball quirks in tty behavior can = be dated to the early 80s to optimize somebody's use case...

Warner
3D""=E1=90=A7
--00000000000098443a05ec972d97--