From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C577D23883 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 01:45:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DFC3436D9; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 09:45:01 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1031.google.com (mail-pj1-x1031.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1031]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74249436D8 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 09:44:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1031.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2c2eb98a64fso4063453a91.2 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 2024 16:44:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1718667892; x=1719272692; darn=tuhs.org; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=t7/Pre99c2HB6Q0ei0dzwjuazZNJ6cvuRl0m18J538A=; b=STaXME0shdHEEeGMoToYUsV1DrHOPVxQSgyXdbV4UwBH9LqkGX7xa++TBBQlWXvTan r9kZYLd4pckcLkHLrDmjjuvz4Dyjv+RemgZe9P1zA9/9OiHhz4bZnGLRtQSLbpJfn8JB wb4weLsdYxZPsD0A2YM0H1QhejDfANoaNF9RTHRK3B37a/piOiIu5ngTh/nM9xqxBx1K xHVr6Z7zqjy0EPrxeIHIxyPMhxuI1A5eecK96Ase1kod+6vnsqcftr1AnLo864s/FnXQ Wz50lweg5btjbsNOOkZz+pWdkq0NwCev0GrPgy03TbFafIdmJNEO496S6EExOL1YxR54 eV6g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718667892; x=1719272692; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=t7/Pre99c2HB6Q0ei0dzwjuazZNJ6cvuRl0m18J538A=; b=X7a9RMZlnIaWte3gVYWF5NTj8juqC+KrIAqEYbtowPzjRt5e7IbKYb0mr/DOzCyMid O7eolZBTsN7M/OJIZ8J1t1SOjuWo6K7Y1G9JO1Y9+AeBkDCRrBE+7qfmm5ZMagvFG1AQ nt7MNPy+1tDyu/+b2KGpBegmhXNgLwu0RESYKZh2WKeWYWLa89JN9vs9+EZYwxLuhDCf x5MTehn3B1TDvEf8PYmc1/JWd3VUzotTsvJH9LMw8DJ5WJthSmgX1qlUKXfI6y+fSRKf QhV8725ifNsUvawmaWAhZwk0qAPxDwGK2eik8e1d+5p51US4vEWzaqWlfvRH3X2c6czm uhbQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yy8ggFK7CzFWiAhoJrSbzQ5g9bCxBPQORaPOjaaZf5TYgzedyzE 6Cn1uAY6tfSp+EAV3or7h7V65EHLB+05ICR/Ejda6RE+dXBM0hMK9JNh9BUNltDGHBSF2MtvM45 J8cNoR0MFj47xQ425ZOKUceCidF6UCDa/cZE29QTt+RpOsHlYBtY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IH4SJKX99VIy2LlOEqYOCjLIH9NsAUGWzSM19BN0tDFgiOew5umSRTlZFjZVSE3oZCe12vgqtNpc81zGoz09yg= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:f195:b0:2c1:aa8d:2ec9 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2c4db12bb2bmr10864545a91.6.1718667892266; Mon, 17 Jun 2024 16:44:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87msnl4ew0.fsf@gmail.com> <87iky84c23.fsf@gmail.com> <20240617012531.GE12821@mcvoy.com> <0e6792ed-65b0-e2e1-8159-6426a7f15a8d@riddermarkfarm.ca> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2024 17:44:40 -0600 Message-ID: To: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000034ae46061b1e8d81" Message-ID-Hash: 43CU4CHGRQS6ZUXZHNBYMMFCGYZ7CSYM X-Message-ID-Hash: 43CU4CHGRQS6ZUXZHNBYMMFCGYZ7CSYM X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' The Register List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000034ae46061b1e8d81 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 5:30=E2=80=AFPM Greg A. Woods wro= te: > At Mon, 17 Jun 2024 18:34:06 -0400 (EDT), Steve Nickolas < > usotsuki@buric.co> wrote: > Subject: [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix > philosophy' The Register > > > > Which is why I'm glad Debian's /bin/sh is dash (fork of ash) instead. > > Well, to be pedantic "dash" was a direct descendant of NetBSD's /bin/sh, > which in turn was the shell from 4.4BSD, which was of course originally > Kenneth Almquist's Ash. Quite a few changes were made to the shell in > BSD between the time it was imported (1991), and the 4.4 release (1995). > > Unfortunately Dash now lags very far behind NetBSD's /bin/sh code. > > If they had just kept it as a port of the upstream code and continued to > update it from upstream then "they" would now have a much better shell > (as much development has occurred in NetBSD since 1997), but no it's a > full-on fork that's basically ignored its upstream parent since day one. > It is doomed now to need fixes for the same bugs again, often in > incompatible ways, and probably inevitably new features will be added to > it, also in incompatible ways. > > Then again OpenBSD and FreeBSD (and its derivatives) have also continued > forked development of the 4.4BSD shell (and most of the rest of the > system) with only very occasional sharing of code back and forth with > NetBSD. > Yea. Personality squabbles trump common sense. Some areas have reconverged, and those are bright points. I guess this forking of code is also somewhat a part of "Unix" practice, > even if it goes against the strict tenets of Unix philosophy. I don't > think it's as egregious as the N.I.H. "doctrine" (of which systemd could > be the result of, and cmake is definitely the result of), but it is > problematic. > Yea. It's more of a people problem and for the first 15 or 20 years of 4.4BSD the tools to reconverge weren't up to the task, even if the political will had been there to bless it. Diff was just one part. The easy part. But knowing why things differed. What mattered, why it was different (often with only the log message "fix. Ok xxx" to go on). Once it morphed organically for even 5 years, going back was hard. There was no upstream anymore. Csrg was gone, and all successor BSD projects assumed they were the new upstream. It was rarely clear whichnproject has the rights to that claim as the answer was patjologically different for different parts of the system. The NIH stuff sunk adopting jails, geom, smp, etc from FreeBSD and almost sunk make from unifying some years ago. Too much ego and wanting perfect code so all that other code is junk... It's a hard problem because continuing engineering is actually hard and boring work nobody wants to do as their fun hobby... not least because it requires a lot of time to keep up and the skills of a diplomat, which previous few people have.. plus a perception that mere merging never advances the state of the art... Warner -- > Greg A. Woods > > Kelowna, BC +1 250 762-7675 RoboHack > Planix, Inc. Avoncote Farms > --00000000000034ae46061b1e8d81 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 5:30=E2=80=AFPM Greg A. Woods &l= t;woods@robohack.ca> wrote:
=
At Mon, 17 Jun 2024 18:34:06 -0400 (ED= T), Steve Nickolas <usotsuki@buric.co> wrote:
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philos= ophy' The Register
>
> Which is why I'm glad Debian's /bin/sh is dash (fork of ash) i= nstead.

Well, to be pedantic "dash" was a direct descendant of NetBSD'= ;s /bin/sh,
which in turn was the shell from 4.4BSD, which was of course originally
Kenneth Almquist's Ash.=C2=A0 Quite a few changes were made to the shel= l in
BSD between the time it was imported (1991), and the 4.4 release (1995).
Unfortunately Dash now lags very far behind NetBSD's /bin/sh code.

If they had just kept it as a port of the upstream code and continued to update it from upstream then "they" would now have a much better = shell
(as much development has occurred in NetBSD since 1997), but no it's a<= br> full-on fork that's basically ignored its upstream parent since day one= .
It is doomed now to need fixes for the same bugs again, often in
incompatible ways, and probably inevitably new features will be added to it, also in incompatible ways.

Then again OpenBSD and FreeBSD (and its derivatives) have also continued forked development of the 4.4BSD shell (and most of the rest of the
system) with only very occasional sharing of code back and forth with
NetBSD.

Yea. Personality squabbles trump common sense. Some areas have recon= verged, and those are bright points.

I guess this forking of code is also somewhat a part of "Unix" pr= actice,
even if it goes against the strict tenets of Unix philosophy.=C2=A0 I don&#= 39;t
think it's as egregious as the N.I.H. "doctrine" (of which sy= stemd could
be the result of, and cmake is definitely the result of), but it is
problematic.

Yea. It's more of a people problem and for the first 15 or = 20 years of 4.4BSD the tools to reconverge weren't up to the task, even= if the political will had been there to bless it. Diff was just one part. = The easy part. But knowing why things differed. What mattered, why it was d= ifferent (often with only the log message "fix. Ok xxx" to go on)= . Once it morphed organically for even 5 years, going back was hard. There = was no upstream anymore. Csrg was gone, and all successor BSD projects assu= med they were the new upstream. It was rarely clear whichnproject has the r= ights to that claim as the answer was patjologically different for differen= t parts of the system.

T= he NIH stuff sunk adopting jails, geom, smp, etc from FreeBSD and almost su= nk make from unifying some years ago. Too much ego and wanting perfect code= so all that other code is junk... It's a hard problem because continui= ng engineering is actually hard and boring work nobody wants to do as their= fun hobby... not least because it requires a lot of time to keep up and th= e skills of a diplomat, which previous few people have.. plus a perception = that mere merging never advances the state of the art...=C2=A0

Warner

--
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Greg A. = Woods <gwoods@acm.org>

Kelowna, BC=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+1 250 762-7675=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0RoboHack <woods@robohack.ca>
Planix, Inc. <woods@planix.com>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Avoncote Farms = <woods@avoncote.ca>
--00000000000034ae46061b1e8d81--