From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 16039 invoked from network); 17 Sep 2021 16:13:45 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 17 Sep 2021 16:13:45 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 218599CABC; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 02:13:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C3569CAB3; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 02:13:19 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.i=@bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.b="cYojgj6q"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 7028B9CAB3; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 02:13:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f50.google.com (mail-vs1-f50.google.com [209.85.217.50]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 55C7A9CAB2 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 02:13:17 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f50.google.com with SMTP id o124so9917683vsc.6 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:13:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dL3XMowIytgYz9lnm1Qxgu2U0Od2hUHgNYnAOxMSsh8=; b=cYojgj6qHJU2nKZftxOZny7HzhDZVfQpw5Yb9hFDuxf6T4GDYfm06o7i0XgOBcWUNQ VOEeGSOXIBKiC+8TiumOEcC84IqrBEsXb6q4gAWwgA1hwoWoc4qcuVdi7XWtqNTRmjJh ihzjx58mB96DCzGDE95/F8PJAzKTdn8iaL8ODSoOC87zrJtveDnyxvG7taZcDgdGLp2x VGEWL5lcCRGeZshazsO4As2kBzOQHblzL3Y37QGn9RKF7IY0ZVsBl3DrrQGHU7HIgOdB H9tcGcdDOoA5ZM/Pbne/iUzz8NkC+RCZ/Q3Axv+RbLFIVIkxLjnhdsp+2I1nDEgKxlGL grUw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dL3XMowIytgYz9lnm1Qxgu2U0Od2hUHgNYnAOxMSsh8=; b=M+C1MsrePsg6tDOxbFj3Y9VZNIEdu1f1SZR6SmrFUPNb3+WxonlLeJeaR87og5ReWl pxwiy95hMLgZXesaJDyKnCAn/ASoGbjIzU2bPcqKvkY5GjLAH7qPMlwRwhgPNxfJWRsO G6/fDyj5Gus68hGU36YGKfZGnTsgx9TrpphCvYJJ1X1GhIeO13hmDxWv8vKAB0a3eXOc FqghCZkcVn4dWbbBoAXd9Fnr45klXEmnNU/g5axb8b3QCoPz9ciHOWy0eEX0lVftFs0u qeAwTDUIf7mYeVGI0HR0gmHccHOxawoc5xQP1IBSrXlz9XVjmWjAPs+7jVpkK8PmKZ+D tpxg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533SNmYq8otMe+ikvjkOsPJcsmTLo9VVl9iegK4oUcLN4mp4LMep RXUnIglda3uTbPH9yYtcT0ZYEmvLd6ARQPpWi9R4Kg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyL2o1+zT4bfO5FjrqR64lHgeVZ1qoM7F/m1uumzh4fW1Hp1VUa5HngLm8TaMlZULDX7/WMKqFy1u+XJhRQNWw= X-Received: by 2002:a67:d589:: with SMTP id m9mr9440079vsj.30.1631895195951; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:13:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2007825471.713023.1631887763341.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2007825471.713023.1631887763341@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:13:05 -0600 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000077669c05cc3335cc" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Unix for PDP11/20 w/o mmu or paging option X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: "tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org" Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000077669c05cc3335cc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 9:32 AM Clem Cole wrote: > FYI: The KS11 MMU for the 11/20 was built by CSS and was not on the > product list as it were. To my knowledge, no hardware or prints of it > survive. I've been told it was much more similar to the MMU in the KA10 > than the scheme eventually done for the 11/45/55/70 and the 11/40 class > systems - but I think Noel has done more investigation than I have. So if > others have more info, please chime in. > > As Warner points out the oldest code base we have is Fifth Edition. > I'm not sure if the KS11 code is still there. I did not think so. I > thought it ran on 11/40 and 11/45. > > The V1 work was for a PDP-7 and is before the first 11/20 was secured. > The point is that I think there is a hole in the the SW we have. > V0 was for the pdp-7/pdp-9. V1 was the first port to the 11/20. V2 still supports the 11/20, but V3 and V4 move heavily to the 11/40s and 11/45s. We have printouts for V0. And the kernel for V1 with bits and pieces in the V2 to V3 timeframe that folded into the Unix-Jun72 efforts. Warner > As for RK03 vs. RK05 -- *I think I can help a little*. RK02/RK03 used > an RK-11C. I'm fairly sure that the RK05, used the RK11-D controller. > The '72 peripherals' handbook describes the former and the '76 the later. > But if you believe the handbook, both supported 203 cylinders and 2.45M > bytes/disk with 512 byte sectors. The difference seems to have been in > drive performance. > > On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 10:34 AM Warner Losh wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 8:10 AM Roland via TUHS >> wrote: >> >>> Hello Unix fanatics, >>> >>> I have a PDP11/20 and I would love to run an early Unix version on it. >>> I've been working on the hardware for a while and I'm getting more and more >>> of the pieces back online again. The configuration will be two RK05 hard >>> disks, TU56H tape, PC11 paper tape reader/puncher and a RX01 floppy drive. >>> Unfortunately I don't have a MMU or paging option. But it seems that the >>> earliest versions of Unix do not need the extra memory. >>> >>> Does anyone have RK05 disk images for these early Unix versions? That >>> would be a great help. Otherwise it would be great to have some input about >>> how to create a bootable Unix pack for this machine. >>> >> >> V5 is the earliest Unix we have contemporary images from. We have >> fragments from everything else earlier, including files scavenged/recovered >> from early DECtapes and some code recovered from kernel listings from a >> Unix course that was put together by Bell Labs... >> >> The Unix 1972 project that some TUHS members did. I think it's in the >> TUHS distribution archive, but also on github. I think Warren Toomey's repo >> is the canonical one https://github.com/DoctorWkt/unix-jun72 but >> https://github.com/c3x04/Unix-1st-Edition-jun72 has a couple of newer >> fixes for a docker file to contain the simh simulator. I'm unsure what >> hardware that's supported, though. The machine file suggests: >> >> rk03/rk11 177400 disk RK >> dc11 174000 tty? (not supp?) >> tc11/tu56 177340 dec tape DTn (not showing up in simh?) >> rf11/rs11 177460 fixed head disk RF >> kw11-l 177546 clock CLK >> pc11 177550 paper tape PTR/PTP >> asr-33 177560 tty? TTI, TTO >> >> which has an RK03, not sure how close that is to an RK05, so some tweaks >> may be needed. >> >> Warner >> >> >>> A bit about the hardware restoring is on the vcfed forum: >>> >>> https://www.vcfed.org/forum/forum/genres/dec/78961-rk05-disk-drive-versions >>> https://www.vcfed.org/forum/forum/genres/dec/80723-pdp11-20-restoring >>> >>> Booting RT11 from RK05 >>> https://youtu.be/k0tiUcRBPQA >>> TU56H tape drive back online >>> https://youtu.be/_ZJK3QP9gRA >>> >>> Thanks in advance! >>> Roland Huisman >>> >>> >>> >> --00000000000077669c05cc3335cc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 9:32 AM Clem = Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
<= /div>
FYI:=C2=A0 The KS11 MMU = for the 11/20 was built by CSS and was not on the product list as it were. = To my knowledge, no hardware or prints of it survive.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I've= been told it was much more similar to the MMU in the KA10 than the scheme = eventually done for the 11/45/55/70 and the 11/40 class systems - but I thi= nk Noel has done more investigation than I have.=C2=A0 So if others have mo= re info, please chime in.

= =C2=A0As Warner points out the oldest code base we have is Fifth Edition.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I'm not sure if the KS11 code is still there.=C2=A0 I did= not think so.=C2=A0 I thought it ran on 11/40 and 11/45.

The V1 work was for a PDP-7 and is before = the first=C2=A011/20 was secured.=C2=A0 The point is that I think there is = a hole in the the=C2=A0SW we have.

<= div>V0 was for the pdp-7/pdp-9. V1 was the first port to the 11/20. V2 stil= l supports the 11/20, but V3 and V4 move heavily to the 11/40s and 11/45s.<= /div>

We have printouts for V0. And the kernel for V1 wi= th bits and pieces in the V2 to V3 timeframe that folded into the Unix-Jun7= 2 efforts.

Warner
=C2=A0
As for RK03 vs. RK05=C2=A0 -- I thin= k=C2=A0I can help a little.=C2=A0 RK02/RK03 used an RK-11C.=C2=A0 I'= ;m fairly sure that the RK05,=C2=A0 used the RK11-D controller.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0The '72 peripherals' handbook describes the former and the '= 76 the later.=C2=A0 But if you believe the handbook, both supported 203 cyl= inders and 2.45M bytes/disk with 512 byte sectors.=C2=A0 The difference see= ms to have been in drive performance.

On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 10:34 AM= Warner Losh <imp@bs= dimp.com> wrote:


On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 8:10 = AM Roland via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:
Hello = Unix fanatics,

I have a PD= P11/20 and I would love to run an early Unix version on it. I've been w= orking on the hardware for a while and I'm getting more and more of the= pieces back online again. The configuration will be two RK05 hard disks, T= U56H tape, PC11 paper tape reader/puncher and a RX01 floppy drive. Unfortun= ately I don't have a MMU or paging option. But it seems that the earlie= st versions of Unix do not need the extra memory.
Does anyone have RK05 disk images for these early U= nix versions? That would be a great help. Otherwise it would be great to ha= ve some input about how to create a bootable Unix pack for this machine.

V5 is the earliest Unix we = have contemporary images from. We have fragments from everything else earli= er, including files scavenged/recovered from early DECtapes and some code r= ecovered from kernel listings from a Unix course that was put together by B= ell Labs...

The Unix 1972 project that some TU= HS members did. I think it's in the TUHS distribution archive, but also= on github. I think Warren Toomey's repo is the canonical one=C2=A0https://g= ithub.com/DoctorWkt/unix-jun72 but=C2=A0https://github.com/c3x04/Uni= x-1st-Edition-jun72 has a couple of newer fixes for a docker file to co= ntain the simh simulator. I'm unsure what hardware that's supported= , though.=C2=A0 The machine file suggests:

rk03/rk= 11 =C2=A0 177400 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 disk =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 RK
dc11 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0174000 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 tty? =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (not supp?)
tc11/tu56 =C2=A0 177340 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 dec tape =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 DTn (not showing up in s= imh?)
rf11/rs11 =C2=A0 177460 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 fixed head disk =C2=A0RF
= kw11-l =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0177546 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 clock =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0CLK
pc11 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0177550 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 paper tape =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 PTR/PTP
asr-33 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0177560 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 tty? =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 TTI,= TTO

which has an RK03, not sure how close tha= t is to an RK05, so some tweaks may be needed.

War= ner
=C2=A0

Thanks in advance!
Roland Huisman

=C2=A0
--00000000000077669c05cc3335cc--