From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AC0923F79 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2024 01:35:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5229E43C6A; Fri, 8 Nov 2024 10:35:38 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1030.google.com (mail-pj1-x1030.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1030]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 507C943BDE for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2024 10:35:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1030.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2e2e6a1042dso1258394a91.2 for ; Thu, 07 Nov 2024 16:35:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1731026134; x=1731630934; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=28ySvwcJvTNotxAjhHm/7Fzx9zAYzILZOdJm7BBt0J4=; b=bw2ppBrakhsWXa8Fvc/wTW9VFAq1biAKgmVVMuJtjECdn4L4y1z0iW3AKmgEO3Rz2E EdEsv6Mp5oZdlSHBdk/I99PDLKs91jyBUPdm2p7VRxiY2meq9Q1utI7H8g1GJegGC1kC Wjc4viYb1+b+kkxvaVy/CQ273htrVrGgVEcCfo4wKqJ4tA1yfNR+z8G1gIsXybB5qty1 t95YMPLEmg3V12cFJhzB19E6yliMLe7ZAGRjDE7G3d5TnYu9klqH6oXG7cnHQwUV/64Q w1ZInaEZIINqINicRQK+zD2JpfKy6XkGrmesjPI6A39ndtpIce84Rx4MnFtdEfFwqjgk 2cPA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1731026134; x=1731630934; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=28ySvwcJvTNotxAjhHm/7Fzx9zAYzILZOdJm7BBt0J4=; b=SxR6F6yC6qghul4fVEUN01Jk/24sucAyp3OfCy+jQjTQJ5xa3s5vk4XD/YCPiOZIfT KQhTMnMLSRtHfm4SmnrkbqG77fyr0Wy2gogfLKCLCMC3Zc3Xm6uxw7nninU6mI5sh7oA VMT4VYKEDb000cXUVA9Gd4oRj8seX6sEOE32CD9qkOEYwKausg8W/8a3ETw3+aUmlXq8 OWPtwYD3YcsL1XZcjxlIP1YVjTOM24tSCPpiszdei1bo60MYTJBgq31mR4JQhWA72ZFV wYon5Ei79TfZ3mHnETmHdjzt4jwCFYZFMPLyuVKYrbZJGhI4/HU51EUWG4F15UCIrD9U c2CA== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVstxJhvvElyWuQikBKTcEfO/MHNCXYFlpN1L5Tc+P3avPHvUbXqcd3vMh2JJqWZhBLIPWH@tuhs.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yzja2+hjCe7kNo3PhYXTTtzZxptszH1d/TeGYcUeUE2nmAcM/id MtMrzpR2a/ccSUT5fWZyf4YV4xeFHu9ndG/vrP7+5VYLMr58MY4Y+Jp/sHXRLNIVwgNSgQHGomL MDrt0UHAvUlXLWZIb4KYOWSWYUbNE10hzKnPF8w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHccoqHWJe2FSmLU5UF/NkqDgXhSawMYSj+PSi+9a0ZD1WsZqgF4jxZDD2Zg8FkkohY0vLuIdETq0+mX5SoCvg= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:3911:b0:2e2:f04d:9f0d with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2e9b170c3camr1632069a91.16.1731026133751; Thu, 07 Nov 2024 16:35:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20241105010937.GC18296@mcvoy.com> <20241105015400.GD18296@mcvoy.com> <20241108000311.GB4141@mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20241108000311.GB4141@mit.edu> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2024 16:35:22 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Theodore Ts'o" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ccba3d06265bedeb" Message-ID-Hash: SUIRMXOLGARZHRGSLRKFML2ZQI6RO4E7 X-Message-ID-Hash: SUIRMXOLGARZHRGSLRKFML2ZQI6RO4E7 X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Marc Rochkind , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: SCO's "evidence" (was: RIP Darl McBride former CEO of SCO) List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000ccba3d06265bedeb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Nov 7, 2024 at 4:03=E2=80=AFPM Theodore Ts'o wrote: > On Thu, Nov 07, 2024 at 01:59:18PM -0700, Marc Rochkind wrote: > > > > Somebody here likened this to the GPL, in the sense that if you add > > anything to a GPL-licensed thing, the whole thing, including your stuff= , > is > > covered by the GPL. I don't know enough about the GPL to say for sure > that > > that's actually how the GPL works. > > Well, it is certainly possible to insert dual-licensed code --- for > exaple, there are some WiFi drivers which are dual-licensed under the > BSD and GPL licenses, and the file is very clearly marked as being > dual licensed. This means that if someone contributes changes to the > file, their are agreeing that their changes are also similarly > dual-licensed --- and so those changes can be take and merged into a > driver that might be part of (for example) FreeBSD. > > Now, if you take code which was originally under a weak FOSS license whic= h > is GPL compatible, and you don't mark it as dual licensed when you > incorporate it into a GPL project, the presumption is that the code in > the GPL project is GPL licensed. So if there are changes made to that > codebase as it exists in the GPL code bases, those changes are > presumed to be GPL-licened, and hence can't be contributed back to the > BSD-licensed code base. > > This caused a certain aount of unhappiness by BSD partisans, since > they viewed it unfair the GPL project to take code from the BSD > project, but they couldn't do the reverse. There were two responses > to this. > > The first was, "well, if you were OK with a weak free software > license, and you were presumably happy allowing NetAPP or Sun to take > your code and make $$$ off of it, why are you whining about a GPL > project doing essentilly the same thing as NetAPP or Sun? In both > cases, you aren't getting improveents back from your code. Deal with > it." > Part of the problem, though, in some of these cases was that the entire license was removed, rather than the GPL being just added... The BSDL is quite permissive, true, but not quite that permissive... > The second resonse was to work with the BSD folks, and to maintain > certain drivers as dual-licensed, as described earlier. > Which is always a better choice... > In some other, related cases, such as Linux's /dev/random driver, or > the UUID library in userspace, I *wanted* the code to get used in as > may places as possible, and so I was **happy** that Apple adopted my > UUID library in MacOS, something that was only possible because I had > dual-licensed the UUID library under the GPL and BSD-style license > from the get-go. As far as I know no took the /dev/random driver from > Linux and put in their BSD-style licensed OS. But it certainly worked > as-designed in the case of the UUID library. (Not that it was a huge > amount of code, but I was passionate about promulgating the use of > UUID's as far and as wide as possible.) > That's a good outcome... Warner > Cheers, > > - Ted > --000000000000ccba3d06265bedeb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Nov 7, 2024 at 4:03=E2=80=AFP= M Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu&= gt; wrote:
On Th= u, Nov 07, 2024 at 01:59:18PM -0700, Marc Rochkind wrote:
>
> Somebody here likened this to the GPL, in the sense that if you add > anything to a GPL-licensed thing, the whole thing, including your stuf= f, is
> covered by the GPL. I don't know enough about the GPL to say for s= ure that
> that's actually how the GPL works.

Well, it is certainly possible to insert dual-licensed code --- for
exaple, there are some WiFi drivers which are dual-licensed under the
BSD and GPL licenses, and the file is very clearly marked as being
dual licensed.=C2=A0 This means that if someone contributes changes to the<= br> file, their are agreeing that their changes are also similarly
dual-licensed --- and so those changes can be take and merged into a
driver that might be part of (for example) FreeBSD.

Now, if you take code which was originally under a weak FOSS license which<= br> is GPL compatible, and you don't mark it as dual licensed when you
incorporate it into a GPL project, the presumption is that the code in
the GPL project is GPL licensed.=C2=A0 So if there are changes made to that=
codebase as it exists in the GPL code bases, those changes are
presumed to be GPL-licened, and hence can't be contributed back to the<= br> BSD-licensed code base.

This caused a certain aount of unhappiness by BSD partisans, since
they viewed it unfair the GPL project to take code from the BSD
project, but they couldn't do the reverse.=C2=A0 There were two respons= es
to this.

The first was, "well, if you were OK with a weak free software
license, and you were presumably happy allowing NetAPP or Sun to take
your code and make $$$ off of it, why are you whining about a GPL
project doing essentilly the same thing as NetAPP or Sun?=C2=A0 In both
cases, you aren't getting improveents back from your code.=C2=A0 Deal w= ith
it."

Part of the problem, though, = in some of these cases was that the entire
license was removed, r= ather than the GPL being just added...=C2=A0 The BSDL
is quite pe= rmissive, true, but not quite that permissive...
=C2=A0
The second resonse was to work with the BSD folks, and to maintain
certain drivers as dual-licensed, as described earlier.

Which is always a better choice...
=C2=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> In some other, related cases, such as Linux's /dev/random driver, or the UUID library in userspace, I *wanted* the code to get used in as
may places as possible, and so I was **happy** that Apple adopted my
UUID library in MacOS, something that was only possible because I had
dual-licensed the UUID library under the GPL and BSD-style license
from the get-go.=C2=A0 As far as I know no took the /dev/random driver from=
Linux and put in their BSD-style licensed OS.=C2=A0 But it certainly worked=
as-designed in the case of the UUID library.=C2=A0 (Not that it was a huge<= br> amount of code, but I was passionate about promulgating the use of
UUID's as far and as wide as possible.)

=
That's a good outcome...

Warner
=C2=A0
Cheers,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Ted
--000000000000ccba3d06265bedeb--