From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 2534 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2023 02:31:06 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 1 Jan 2023 02:31:06 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAE224240B; Sun, 1 Jan 2023 12:30:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ed1-f49.google.com (mail-ed1-f49.google.com [209.85.208.49]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4B9E41C73 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2023 12:30:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ed1-f49.google.com with SMTP id c17so35648441edj.13 for ; Sat, 31 Dec 2022 18:30:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=KKKCuaBRFIjh1J4KDLmQZO2lL42tCsxrnaJS1FOvfGI=; b=ny+ZPvPsf+GOSVjREaos0e6VWi1TeuqXUMvEAOPRJ83WdQi8TyYPNwaVDIyDNcmhf0 J0sIiSCrV2lRqtApY/Z5Q6AUd5al3thzYhN+LH9TbNoCUQbgTx9nExYEbzOYjBWnIMyf ShimxTtYyrCeR7srROzOMVaEJkGUAlYK85m7TztBEwOW8W6kbIKhiXGJfU0hKBB9xpgs DwoKCg6NBBqMV5aedAU6tT/uM1lNw99eBqzMU7bkXieueII3neJL9+ma0OeOxK2nKdVq HeSzIZy6YrYE1+EZZMRzBRBAJU/aDRxK+86PziUWT9dIpMM6MHlV257QReYTvhQnun7T HK7Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=KKKCuaBRFIjh1J4KDLmQZO2lL42tCsxrnaJS1FOvfGI=; b=wPjEdSp4LL4NZz1q8eiKR0fgLYOL3VXW1RMZDAiWzjApW3BJRhlTothmuFKk+IDl2X 73P1uNNcCLuwF8e0MfNR6W2+A4ezvSVEBpfyCoedhPtr59/LsdPGHB9uFen9fev6yZrO xVScO0zm6kqm3oP6QxN6UxhzwFXp0Uely41wHlqgYr9gNn9NSlLsra97yjVDTafEsSGq PnHWhVf1Pt1NFVx5PgX/JXzvvnNdAqaV1UXERbzs3sJfPbhbIN0nKSgEPGBrFNikCt6b oBb0xZnfQ875Q3W7N1Pb6JYgLY0tO2Wwn4VotIc8HZkd43oR3wnmgeUHsi3iAzviom/k b06A== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kpwa1YlHhzrEyuZJp80z2GxsRNzTGPXon0hwpDR91PRQ6pVlo41 8ygOqRtafuiR1nMwEU+T0fSsIvfuwyjp7jxK5mntuNMU1snekg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXt/eElUnDGDnm085RIVOEf/5ToYLqNcATDollybOQqJsnhxE4RrM7bJ7FSla2lWPZxTu+BnLB4MFUTU8JQ0LwI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:177c:b0:48c:7e42:8483 with SMTP id da28-20020a056402177c00b0048c7e428483mr225980edb.241.1672540176040; Sat, 31 Dec 2022 18:29:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <335F89A9-30C2-41A2-8E84-C2D761746634@planet.nl> <20230101014054.GD5825@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20230101014054.GD5825@mcvoy.com> From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 19:29:25 -0700 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000010d90205f12a9b11" Message-ID-Hash: VROX3T72AT4LDB7XV4VAMPXGA4ZCCTPL X-Message-ID-Hash: VROX3T72AT4LDB7XV4VAMPXGA4ZCCTPL X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting the SysIII kernel: boot, config & device drivers List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000010d90205f12a9b11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" FreeBSD's boot loader uses Forth as it's scripting language.... well, we replaced it a couple years ago with Lua... it's just big enough to be useful and small enough to fit in BIOS constrained (640k) environments. Perl and python are too big... Warner On Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 6:40 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > All true except for the Forth choice. It's as bad, maybe worse, as > choosing Tcl for your language. I've written a ton of Tcl but I > need the Tk GUI part so I put up with Tcl to get it. I'd never > push Tcl as a language that other people had to use. Same thing > with Forth. > > I dunno what I'd pick, Perl in the old days, Python now (not that > I care for Python but everyone can program it). Just pick something > that is trivial for someone to pick up. > > On Sun, Jan 01, 2023 at 11:16:16AM +1000, George Michaelson wrote: > > A counter argument which will be well understood as self-justifying if > made > > by a boot rom specialist: > > > > Every machine I make winds up looking a bit different. The new bus has > > different logic. The chip initialisation differs. Blobs become more > > interestingly hard to handle because associated pre boot initialisation > > dependency keeps rising and no amount of push back from me stops it. > > > > If I make my boot ROM forth, I can reduce my marginal costs to writing > > forth code for most variant handling and occasional uplift of new > > primitives and constants into the forth for edge cases. My life gets > > simpler if I implement the wheel of life. > > > > I would imagine after the 10th sub variant, one would wind up thinking > like > > this. > > > > Of course a rational alternative is to maintain a monrepo of all the > > variants and recompile all of them all the time to make all the boot ROMs > > far smaller. But making the generic anything ROM and changing only some > > forth would be attractive. > > > > Never owned this problem. I did work with two groups doing lsi-11 images > > for x.25 handling on yorkbox, and they definitely thought more like you > > than me on this: hand code it, code it well, they aren't general purpose > > devices when doing this kind of job. (I annoyed them a lot which tends to > > "probably they were right" in hindsight on my part) > > > > G > > -- > --- > Larry McVoy Retired to fishing > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat > --00000000000010d90205f12a9b11 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
FreeBSD's boot loader uses Forth as it's scr= ipting language.... well, we replaced it a couple years ago with Lua... it&= #39;s just big enough to be useful and small enough to fit in BIOS constrai= ned (640k) environments. Perl and python are too big...
Warner


On Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 6:40 PM Larry McV= oy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
All true except for the Forth choice.=C2=A0= It's as bad, maybe worse, as
choosing Tcl for your language.=C2=A0 I've written a ton of Tcl but I need the Tk GUI part so I put up with Tcl to get it.=C2=A0 I'd never push Tcl as a language that other people had to use.=C2=A0 Same thing
with Forth.

I dunno what I'd pick, Perl in the old days, Python now (not that
I care for Python but everyone can program it).=C2=A0 Just pick something that is trivial for someone to pick up.

On Sun, Jan 01, 2023 at 11:16:16AM +1000, George Michaelson wrote:
> A counter argument which will be well understood as self-justifying if= made
> by a boot rom specialist:
>
> Every machine I make winds up looking a bit different. The new bus has=
> different logic. The chip initialisation differs. Blobs become more > interestingly hard to handle because associated pre boot initialisatio= n
> dependency keeps rising and no amount of push back from me stops it. >
> If I make my boot ROM forth, I can reduce my marginal costs to writing=
> forth code for most variant handling and occasional uplift of new
> primitives and constants into the forth for edge cases. My life gets > simpler if I implement the wheel of life.
>
> I would imagine after the 10th sub variant, one would wind up thinking= like
> this.
>
> Of course a rational alternative is to maintain a monrepo of all the > variants and recompile all of them all the time to make all the boot R= OMs
> far smaller. But making the generic anything ROM and changing only som= e
> forth would be attractive.
>
>=C2=A0 Never owned this problem. I did work with two groups doing lsi-1= 1 images
> for x.25 handling on yorkbox, and they definitely thought more like yo= u
> than me on this: hand code it, code it well, they aren't general p= urpose
> devices when doing this kind of job. (I annoyed them a lot which tends= to
> "probably they were right" in hindsight on my part)
>
> G

--
---
Larry McVoy=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Retired to fishing=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat<= /a>
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