From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DE72201CA for ; Sat, 25 May 2024 19:02:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F98443B28; Sun, 26 May 2024 03:02:21 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ej1-x62d.google.com (mail-ej1-x62d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62d]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C6BD43B25 for ; Sun, 26 May 2024 03:02:15 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ej1-x62d.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-a6269885572so309926266b.1 for ; Sat, 25 May 2024 10:02:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1716656534; x=1717261334; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=aZEP0zvJbvQ+3z8JKXnh0m0OXWTxL1q7DjuTmMiYRBo=; b=1dCHYakz2YJiZyXLgitIp56J7Iv+SKPzGYSDcK24sp8tuq+M0rILCsufhXpXHBerUz p94QjPfC5rpvbNBk2XwHXabaQy4Y/PK7u9QdIEnVW483q2m/C5nQdrjetrzs7jxK6Dk3 8ZmsmxoVU1GbsTwzNc7l4KDG8nxmC8G1YmBedTOuP8SHWuKwMc852LeBZAAQHS0uX91R 1u1TeMeComh+DL8RvHq44vwESFJPJRXdkq5DKFQCelZSuosj8X0lYiRaN2Dt7Nvl+poh ZOF5bkmDcrFCDZ6U1xuhNnFU/GVd6aNf9VlaX7aJTaqp3YnOuwXJ3OYsMu1XeZWLq1eM MTdQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1716656534; x=1717261334; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=aZEP0zvJbvQ+3z8JKXnh0m0OXWTxL1q7DjuTmMiYRBo=; b=YlhbjB8UmEZbhWplrB7swvLF2hEqbC92y2DGvrxii8UCSRt/EbQs2K6N/xwKiNo66s m/aoHM3GqNSdqP8DW2vNS5WYgP6AscfG5HhHyh4ZVx19KxLzx9zX4xcbjG3gx65QqYye vHMba7MhBzbUA488+rdHoYP2Jf86FbXwn31A+S6dYZmsoC2Kh/qtFO3nsCsSZgi/qPr8 z7agc1JMX5WgzTkSNE5Go+eUA/NHtmGCO8O/rWF46NyPI/qPPMYn7S4YIyE1PJL4o9kc y/hoqANTGbSXJun5FGnw/OrRr4Zxd9Os0Y4KjviivMaYTA0shmtrWdPanX386rYL9vX6 bApA== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCV46bRtfFFur6pQb7axAJAmzgC1CnKrdraJAI9Bdhz/rLX0phtIF6KzWoK/7ZQFXfkr1opGb2hE/kf3pI5a X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Ywu2r7ieEP8ZpzobbW4Jch8aJQi5fwJH5hlM2NPzTsSsxQBTM0P hs3AsUwfzjzmZo8OOheZ0c2N9dtGgxsbZ10cPeaZnnfQ5LS1jV1yq5IpqHh6JZzqT2MTeQvf2Ff M4v23sLYZoPwy/I5zimaqaivAP0wYMwaPTdji0jJNguZyfVL+ X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGXYVpkRK5WaCFdD8IXkId5HAvXFsdzeGXpS+fBAySIQ3M7iBXMhv0pUOeI4lmt8xxC5e9dAR3iPuZZ8IfEBes= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:619f:b0:a62:a48c:1123 with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-a62a48c1761mr169725666b.5.1716656533545; Sat, 25 May 2024 10:02:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20240525155737.bwmngdyf4qnj4avv@illithid> <20240525161320.3jvozzlgvr6tfyxl@illithid> <20240525163810.flvazgbj6tq3l5rw@illithid> In-Reply-To: <20240525163810.flvazgbj6tq3l5rw@illithid> From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 25 May 2024 11:02:00 -0600 Message-ID: To: "G. Branden Robinson" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e23b3006194a3ef2" Message-ID-Hash: CFPELRUAQA3MA4YIHZOFT4DJDYBDBHUW X-Message-ID-Hash: CFPELRUAQA3MA4YIHZOFT4DJDYBDBHUW X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: TUHS main list X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Was curses ported to Seventh Edition Unix? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000e23b3006194a3ef2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, May 25, 2024, 10:38=E2=80=AFAM G. Branden Robinson < g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Clem, > > At 2024-05-25T12:21:17-0400, Clem Cole wrote: > > On Sat, May 25, 2024 at 12:13=E2=80=AFPM G. Branden Robinson < > > g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > That does complicate my simplistic story. Ing70 was, then, as you > noted > > > in a previous mail, an 11/70, but it _wasn't_ running Version 7 Unix, > > > but rather something with various bits of BSD (also in active > > > development, I reckon). > > > > > Mumble -- the kernel and 90% of the userspace on Ing70 was V7 -- it was > > very similar to Teklabs which I ran. > > Yes, sorry, I was hasty and sloppy. I should have qualified that > "Version 7 Unix" with "pure". Though I wonder if anyone ran "pure" > distributions of anything by today's standards, with our flatpaks and VM > images and containers and distributions and Linux kernel "taint" flags. > > And, blessed be, our reproducible builds. So there is such a thing as > progress. > > > The point is it was a 16 bits system, the Johnson C compiler with some > > fixes from the greater USENIX community including UCB. > > There was >>no port<< needed. > > > > This was its native tongue. > > Okay. My crystal ball shows wordsmithing in my future. > > > It was >>included<< in later BSD released which is how people came to > > know it because 4.XBSD was became much more widely used than V7+2BSD. > > Acknowledged. > > > The 2.9 work of Keith at al, started because the UCB Math Dept could > > not afford a VAX. DEC had released the v7m code to support > > overlays, so slowly changed from the VAX made it back into the V7 > > based kernel - which took a new life. > > Ah, I'd never heard the actual origin story of later 2BSD's reason for > parallel development. Thanks! > The 2.8 kernel from the 2.83 archive is a V7 with a bunch of hacks / features #ifdef'd into the tree with a primitive config thing to cons up the #defines. This is still largely present in 2.9, but with less rigid adherence for bug fixes. It's very clear that for the kernel this was followed. I've not studied userland to comment on that but i think not. It also explains why the release notes kept saying it was the last release starting iirc with 2.8... Warner Back when I was first learning Unix, a mere 30 years ago, I asked a > local guru why the kernel image was called "vmunix" instead of just > plain "unix". I got a correct answer, but then asked why you'd keep > calling it "vmunix" when no non-VM Unix was even available for the > platform. Historical inertia and the long shadow of the work that > became 4BSD. (Linus's decision to name his kernel's image "vmlinux" [or > "vmlinuz" for those remember having those lulz] when in its case no > non-VM version had ever existed anywhere, nor even been desired or > conceived, struck me as an excess of continuity.) > > Unix geeks are conservative about the weirdest things. > > Regards, > Branden > --000000000000e23b3006194a3ef2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, May 25, 2024, 10:38=E2=80=AFAM G. Branden Robi= nson <g.branden.robinson= @gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Clem,=

At 2024-05-25T12:21:17-0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> On Sat, May 25, 2024 at 12:13=E2=80=AFPM G. Branden Robinson <
> g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > That does complicate my simplistic story.=C2=A0 Ing70 was, then, = as you noted
> > in a previous mail, an 11/70, but it _wasn't_ running Version= 7 Unix,
> > but rather something with various bits of BSD (also in active
> > development, I reckon).
> >
> Mumble -- the kernel and 90% of the userspace on Ing70 was V7 -- it wa= s
> very similar to Teklabs which I ran.

Yes, sorry, I was hasty and sloppy.=C2=A0 I should have qualified that
"Version 7 Unix" with "pure".=C2=A0 Though I wonder if = anyone ran "pure"
distributions of anything by today's standards, with our flatpaks and V= M
images and containers and distributions and Linux kernel "taint" = flags.

And, blessed be, our reproducible builds.=C2=A0 So there is such a thing as=
progress.

> The point is it was a 16 bits system, the Johnson C compiler with some=
> fixes from the greater USENIX community including UCB.
> There was >>no port<< needed.
>
> This was its native tongue.

Okay.=C2=A0 My crystal ball shows wordsmithing in my future.

> It was >>included<< in later BSD released which is how peo= ple came to
> know it because 4.XBSD was became much more widely used than V7+2BSD.<= br>
Acknowledged.

> The 2.9 work of Keith at al, started because the UCB Math Dept could > not afford a VAX.=C2=A0 =C2=A0DEC had released the=C2=A0 v7m code to s= upport
> overlays, so slowly changed from the VAX made it back into the V7
> based kernel - which took a new life.

Ah, I'd never heard the actual origin story of later 2BSD's reason = for
parallel development.=C2=A0 Thanks!

The 2.8 kernel from the 2.83 archive is = a V7 with a bunch of hacks / features #ifdef'd into the tree with a pri= mitive config thing to cons up the #defines. This is still largely present = in 2.9, but with less rigid adherence for bug fixes. It's very clear th= at for the kernel this was followed. I've not studied userland to comme= nt on that but i think not.

It also explains why the release notes kept saying it was the last rele= ase starting iirc with 2.8...

Warner

Back when I was first learning Unix, a mere 30 years ago, I asked a
local guru why the kernel image was called "vmunix" instead of ju= st
plain "unix".=C2=A0 I got a correct answer, but then asked why yo= u'd keep
calling it "vmunix" when no non-VM Unix was even available for th= e
platform.=C2=A0 Historical inertia and the long shadow of the work that
became 4BSD.=C2=A0 (Linus's decision to name his kernel's image &qu= ot;vmlinux" [or
"vmlinuz" for those remember having those lulz] when in its case = no
non-VM version had ever existed anywhere, nor even been desired or
conceived, struck me as an excess of continuity.)

Unix geeks are conservative about the weirdest things.

Regards,
Branden
--000000000000e23b3006194a3ef2--