From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FF1F26C09 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 23:29:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96FA04365E; Thu, 27 Jun 2024 07:29:17 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pj1-x102b.google.com (mail-pj1-x102b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102b]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6302043659 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2024 07:29:11 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pj1-x102b.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2c81ce83715so4527466a91.3 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 14:29:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1719437351; x=1720042151; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=ryPbf7LEgiYBBTqYVN/OV4/9A0MNV0PQzBkQ7evdsHA=; b=gD55kXGLSmGanWdoN2Rs1OFmlLJJmwYGlizy6/eWbli23OQJqhBIpU9cgSYcVMcOhE Vulnmr8Bythv8xyctjB9HGUul8SBhSuJ1qF3msgT2L2ULLueAalO+8d9DoMnsF8fM5iu THQp3HDy+3QZ/jpNxqzKffcNpy3kWmWIG84NqC0HQpxzhkZvNuuJsIR+UmUZ4ZNC1Eiv eaUpnIk4pWQM4cKEsiP28QfAIpiG7bivXCvu4eH0hc92ls7uSIRaCtEfanACg85yFCix iYldCTq6warWAfFPiIM3tS1IJV62rcefZ6BU/Pi818vfsDkk7X9wDW1y2RLI4BG+btKf VhJQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1719437351; x=1720042151; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=ryPbf7LEgiYBBTqYVN/OV4/9A0MNV0PQzBkQ7evdsHA=; b=ETY/TWWUjwH63IXF6JTfCKrigNG5sR3tFHD3Wv8DIjU6h0jj56peltsYaeWaC/PZ6p g+Mj6gOcOaR8LVjLRBflspTDbg2Au8Y5Yz0sP+vdLVJHbPzR/0ujPonNOj9Khn6kH2bg /scXkYLgIhu5U7TjJFixMeKwjgQRhFjp48Db5adA/QWjobCDUAZnqUUB2GzHUAso49Zx Xz3TPCBAFX6LEyls7IvPgJn6nPeZxgaE7g0Itd3fu13QyzOCz/1kLcyowxOakepRh+HC J08Q8oYMi+F59iJnz8yHa6QMQZ4K5v+VHdnInxvO/3nBBB0cn4LRgYF8H3if9K1RAt9s j7sw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUp1hlHdakLIB/7I3DU3SJ2lhAkPAydbSWkKo7DJp+j4styFprS6cL9wvvI8wLHFxioolhWYi0FVkzNSa8B X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yzkmwy1q/9aSwoaQyYvFlHgMedotRedYk3n0cK/uRwPdbXvgCN0 uPEkXcV1n1c4VnxSF/L5+1DJZwugQFqxpM6viLw8WZxkoQbijWo/NNdA/pHnDGy28qkw/ictYvs Bts2966ZmLjm6mFMIecb4oounEBPA4hiTpGnhhg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFN2CEO5CmsKoRUwVVEJgaldR78TFsAsyATtzQjGqQJMQdlf5yGCnmc9k/EIV1VyOBGeakzIzx3g9ipoVcpna0= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4a0e:b0:2c2:1d0f:3c6e with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2c858275b7fmr10487237a91.37.1719437350582; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 14:29:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2024 15:28:59 -0600 Message-ID: To: Alan Coopersmith Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007eda34061bd1b467" Message-ID-Hash: 7L5TEWDOVOX52VNVTXQJNYEZNJJEYXFE X-Message-ID-Hash: 7L5TEWDOVOX52VNVTXQJNYEZNJJEYXFE X-MailFrom: wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Marc Rochkind , tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: ANSI (C) vs IEEE (POSIX) Standards Body Selection List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000007eda34061bd1b467 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'll add that POSIX, as we know it today (and really since at least 2000) is a collaboration between The Open Group, IEEE Std 1003.1-XXXX and ISO/IEC 9945:YYYY (collectively known as the Austin Group, though why "Austin" I cannot say). So these days, it's standardized by "both" IEEE and ANSI (in the form of ISO, of which ANSI is effectively a member). Warner On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 3:20=E2=80=AFPM Alan Coopersmith via TUHS wrote: > On 6/26/24 13:29, Marc Rochkind wrote: > > The standards effort I was involved in was part of the now-forgotten (I > hope) > > GUI Wars, in which a bunch of workstation makers (I remember DEC, HP, > and IBM, > > among others) supporting an X Window System GUI toolkit called Motif > battled Sun > > and AT&T who pushed OpenLook. OpenLook was about 50 times more elegant, > but > > Motif won the day. It came from OSF, the Open Systems Foundation, which > was > > easily the most arrogant organization I ever dealt with. I think they > were > > disbanded as a result of a lawsuit involving restraint of trade, or > monopolistic > > behavior, or a cartel, or something along those lines. > > OSF merged with X/Open to become The Open Group, though the lawsuit you > mention > is described in the History section of > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Software_Foundation . > > > I think the > > Motif folks managed at one point to get their own standards committee. = I > know > > that our effort fizzled. I don't know if there ever was a Motif standar= d. > > After the merger, Motif was included, along with CDE and the X Window > System, > as part of The Open Group's "Unix 98 Workstation" standard. Later versio= ns > of the Unix standards dropped the GUI components altogether. > > > Motif, like X, was easily used by anyone who was an MIT CS grad student= . > > OpenLook might have been used by Sun Workstation programmers, but I > don't know > > if it ever appeared on any other system. > > At least the Xview library and olvm window manager were released as open > source, > and were available on some early Linux distros. Some other applications > are > still available from either https://www.darwinsys.com/olcd/ or > https://github.com/IanDarwin/OpenLookCDROM . > I'm saddened that I was never able to get Object Interface (OI) sources released, since it implemented both Motif and OpenLook (2d and 3d) in C++. and UIB (User Interface Builder). But instead we were purchased by too many companies that later just abandoned everything. It was my little hedge against the Unix Wars, and porting it to all the Unixes showed me both how close everything was, and how annoyingly different things were. I kinda had my own 'portability library' that I'd conditionally compile in things for the outlier Unix systems of the day (usually HP/UX and AIX, though IRIX was oddly both more advanced and missing bits). Warner > -- > -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@oracle.com > Oracle Solaris Engineering - https://blogs.oracle.com/solaris > > --0000000000007eda34061bd1b467 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'll add that POSIX, as we know it to= day (and really since at least 2000) is a collaboration between=C2=A0The Op= en Group, IEEE Std 1003.1-XXXX and ISO/IEC 9945:YYYY (collectively known as= the Austin Group, though why "Austin" I cannot say).

So these days, it's standardized by "bot= h" IEEE and ANSI (in the form of ISO, of which ANSI is effectively a m= ember).

Warner

On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 3:20=E2=80= =AFPM Alan Coopersmith via TUHS <tuhs@t= uhs.org> wrote:
On 6/26/24 13:29, Marc Rochkind wrote:
> The standards effort I was involved in was part of the now-forgotten (= I hope)
> GUI Wars, in which=C2=A0a bunch of workstation makers (I remember DEC,= HP, and IBM,
> among others) supporting an X Window System GUI toolkit called Motif b= attled Sun
> and AT&T who pushed OpenLook. OpenLook was about 50 times more ele= gant, but
> Motif=C2=A0won the day. It came from OSF, the Open Systems Foundation,= which was
> easily the most arrogant organization I ever dealt with. I think they = were
> disbanded as a result of a lawsuit involving restraint of trade, or mo= nopolistic
> behavior, or a cartel, or something along those lines.

OSF merged with X/Open to become The Open Group, though the lawsuit you men= tion
is described in the History section of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Software_Fo= undation .

> I think the
> Motif folks managed at one point to get their own standards committee.= I know
> that our effort fizzled. I don't know if there ever was a Motif st= andard.

After the merger, Motif was included, along with CDE and the X Window Syste= m,
as part of The Open Group's "Unix 98 Workstation" standard.= =C2=A0 Later versions
of the Unix standards dropped the GUI components altogether.

> Motif, like X, was easily used by anyone who was an MIT CS grad studen= t.
> OpenLook might have been used by Sun Workstation programmers, but I do= n't know
> if it ever appeared on any other system.

At least the Xview library and olvm window manager were released as open so= urce,
and were available on some early Linux distros.=C2=A0 Some other applicatio= ns are
still available from either https://www.darwinsys.com/olcd/ or https://github.com/IanDarwin/OpenLookCDROM .

I'm saddened that I was never able to get Ob= ject Interface (OI) sources released,
since it implemented both M= otif and OpenLook (2d and 3d) in C++. and UIB (User Interface Builder).
But instead we were purchased by too many companies that later just = abandoned everything.
It was my little hedge against the Unix War= s, and porting it to all the Unixes showed me
both how close ever= ything was, and how annoyingly different things were. I kinda had my
<= div>own 'portability library' that I'd conditionally compile in= things for the outlier Unix systems of
the day (usually HP/UX an= d AIX, though IRIX was oddly both more advanced and missing
bits)= .

Warner
=C2=A0
--
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-Alan Coopersmith-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0alan.coopersmith@oracle.com
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Oracle Solaris Engineering - http= s://blogs.oracle.com/solaris

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