From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 15607 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2021 15:09:21 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 3 Jul 2021 15:09:21 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 84A689C88D; Sun, 4 Jul 2021 01:09:20 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 452AD9C86C; Sun, 4 Jul 2021 01:08:25 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b="OZ9RjGMJ"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 99DDF9C86C; Sun, 4 Jul 2021 01:08:22 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f173.google.com (mail-qk1-f173.google.com [209.85.222.173]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B34A59C864 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2021 01:08:21 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f173.google.com with SMTP id q190so12566705qkd.2 for ; Sat, 03 Jul 2021 08:08:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=URRLDMqD7UZWKV9MDMk6Mh48iy1PvKs7kJQX4H3OY8U=; b=OZ9RjGMJ+iz4cAYwLTALvkvlGXaAMFKkSSjsxn2JetuSlXWdsfCJf9nLNvaGukVJ5o ut1X5dIAfHoTgR10qfxxRtNVgsmaPVoX7Rm5ZLTtSh2AcSa8nQS3KZsgvAAOJTYIMzOU lKjflwRfSIXZfQRNabMAcCWYxwgDM+FQDQE4+HbWkPYswxkPzpEYiZbYJ2djr1f5Yat9 DrF0zuXxj6uVYCwJAFUpQc+vAHSuK+iJGW2nKRSdzF01fxROySSo0bj2njH5jTGH2gE6 1myHiGtkWb8/XFROcrgcxj3F6ASJ/BV8iwo7/W4J+vsLRMhGhvH+7vdPRhO4zsacZRHj 1hRA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=URRLDMqD7UZWKV9MDMk6Mh48iy1PvKs7kJQX4H3OY8U=; b=njAqeK/VPlbKgiRWD+uRPpUOj4ghpSiXEG11ubLZlVKSzNKzK1Ua8Inh+Y4ioBOTsM B8EgbGCFi4y6j3gXkCe5w9f6AP559PdbmfbxXwj2ZhwpYXxbESUnoTeVnbi6fL4Crrk2 PALOiwcvX4F25n7BjTIBT53bVbqmAZkjWIpBZFnN+bl/1j6Vwo6U5JduR1YBa3VlRX+4 Ij0MlWxYD6V6GTBbo7uxDAmjA3aNPhr2WbdfbEnD8Ig0hXxgpLQPmbJVvS2+kZNVj8/k KfW/PuSR56piQjkvkG3OZbeLNdNzy7Zq+YVdpCcvwYjK9lZlFgNnoCCKGX87MK4ezvHd pJXA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532CJQfugDLyit98MAxwaatzSDIZyMFGKBxtd/jqQdNBEnKyZDwR 08qBwfNhoIBl9x1W9p3CPqelHRIENHhLY8KFa6sKGQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzEZzjVzQYTGDtBzE6NUOlpEOZPk6VhmgXuICq15q5M+1YyNcjW2qEMXmSw135VbKpbHgNjjykKslrNQCzolB4= X-Received: by 2002:a37:bfc3:: with SMTP id p186mr5372555qkf.206.1625324900711; Sat, 03 Jul 2021 08:08:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2021 09:08:09 -0600 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005a12ff05c63971ff" Subject: Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000005a12ff05c63971ff Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Jul 3, 2021 at 8:16 AM Clem Cole wrote: > > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 10:22 PM Matt Day wrote: > >> I think you must be right about the first machine being something running >> BSD UNIX. >> > Be careful when you say 'BSD'-- when people say "BSD UNIX" they > *usually mean* a Unix release post-VAX support (*a.k.a.* 3BSD). > > We know for a fact that Rogue definitely ran on 16-bit PDP-11's - it's an > open question of it needed the '17th bit' (*a.k.a.* separate I/D of > the 11/45 class). As I said, I had on the TekLab's 11/70 in those days and > I think I got it from Mark Bales, who was a UCB student in the CAD group > which I would later join as a grad student. > > Plus Ken Arnold was originally part of the Ingres group, which famously > had the only ArpaNet connection on campus at the time (Ing70 - which I have > forgotten what it's one letter 'Berk-Net' id was -- Mary Ann might remember > - *i.e*. all external email was shipped across the Berknet to Ing70 for > processing). > > The original BSD (*a.k.a.* what we call 1BSD on this mailing list) and > 2BSD, were already in the wild particularly at other University sites, > since 1BSD had UCB Pascal in it and many schools in those days were using > Pascal as their teaching language. But ... if you look at the tapes, there > are tools and the C-shell, ex, and other tidbits, but the *kernel* running > at UCB in those days is very much V6 and later V7 based - maybe with a few > changes like some performance tweaks for nami and moving the I/O buffers > (but those were from other places). > > The system people ran in those days (particularly on PDP-11s) is not > nearly what we now think of as a 'pure-joy.' Truth is, until 4.1BSD, that > is really were 'BSD' starts to take an identity of its own as being > distinctly different from Research and both being loved and loathed by many > -- Rob's 'cat -v' paper *et al.*. > > From the timing, it is also quite possible Toy and Wichman had either a > 3BSD or very early 4BSD Vax or just as likely V7 with 2BSD loaded. > Rough timeline V6 mid 75 1BSD mid 77 (pascal, ex, but no vi) 2BSD late 78 (vi, though from a 1979 copy in tuhs no curses yet, but with termcapish things dated April 79) V7 early 79 3BSD late 79 2BSD April 80 (the 2.79 in the archives, by this point curses was added to the tape) 4BSD mid 80 (with curses) 2.8/4.1BSD mid 81 (first unified kernel+userland pdp-11 distro) So curses library wasn't on the 3bsd tape. It may have been on the 4bsd tape: all I can find is libtermcap on tuhs, but kirk's archive has a curses library data October 1980. The late 2BSD tapes (called 2.79BSD in our archive) is the earliest artifact I can find. It appears curses wasn't widely available until midish 1980: the 2.79BSD tape has a July 17, 1980 date on the docs (being the earliest artifact I could find) and a Jan 1981 on the sources. The earliest net.sources archive I can find starts in 1982. The latest 2BSD tape we have in the archive from April 1979 does not have it. A binary of rogue is on the 2.8BSD and 4.1BSD tapes. 2.8 has 'version 3.4' but no sources and 4.1 has vers 4.22 in a 4.0 upgrade directory, but no sources either: -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 70364 May 21 1981 ./2.8/usr/bin.v7/ucb/rogue -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 96356 Mar 13 1982 ./4.1.snap/usr/games/rogue -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 96356 Mar 13 1982 ./4.1/4.0.upgrade/usr/games/rogue Even in 4.2 it looks like most of rogue was distributed as a binary .o file, and needed the updated net.sources version of libcurses, distributed with 4.2bsd. So from a tracing the artifacts for libcurses, we get an interesting diversion, but nothing conclusive. Warner --0000000000005a12ff05c63971ff Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sat, Jul 3, 2021 at 8:16 AM Clem C= ole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:


On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 10:22 PM Matt Day <fjarlq@gmail.com> wrote:
I think you= must be right about the first machine being something running BSD UNIX.
Be careful when you = say 'BSD'-- when people say "BSD UNIX" they usually=C2= =A0mean=C2=A0a Unix release post-VAX=C2=A0 support (a.k.a. 3BSD).

<= span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri= f">We know for a fact that Rogue definitely ran on 16-bit PDP-11's - it= 's an open question of it needed the '17th bit' (a.k.a. = separate=C2=A0I/D of the=C2=A011/45 class).=C2=A0 As I said, I had on the T= ekLab's=C2=A011/70 in those days and I think=C2=A0I got it from Mark Ba= les, who was a UCB student in the CAD group which I=C2=A0would=C2=A0later j= oin as a grad student.
=
Plus Ken Arnold wa= s originally part of the Ingres group, which famously had the only ArpaNet = connection on campus at the time (Ing70 - which=C2=A0I have forgotten=C2=A0= what it's one letter 'Berk-Net' id was -- Mary Ann might rememb= er - i.e. all external email was shipped across the Berknet to Ing70= for processing).

<= /span>
The original=C2=A0BSD (a.k.a. what we call 1BSD on this mailing list) and 2BSD, were = already in the wild particularly at other University sites, since 1BSD=C2= =A0had UCB Pascal in it and many schools in those days were using Pascal as= their teaching language.=C2=A0 But ... if you look at the tapes, there are= tools and the C-shell, ex, and other tidbits, but the kernel=C2=A0r= unning at UCB in those days is very much V6 and later V7 based - maybe with= a few changes like some performance tweaks for nami and moving the I/O buf= fers (but those were from other places).=C2=A0

The system people ran in those days (particularly on PDP-11s) is not= nearly what we now think of as a 'pure-joy.'=C2=A0 Truth is, until= =C2=A04.1BSD, that is really were=C2=A0'BSD' starts to take an iden= tity of its own as being distinctly different from Research and both being = loved and loathed by many -- Rob's 'cat -v' paper et al.= .

From the timing, it=C2=A0is als= o quite possible Toy and Wichman had either=C2=A0a 3BSD or very early 4= BSD Vax or just as likely V7 with 2BSD loaded.

Rough=C2=A0timeline
V6=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mid 75
1B= SD=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mid 77 (pascal, ex, but no vi)
2BSD=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 late 78 (vi, though from a 1979 copy in tuhs no curses yet, b= ut with termcapish things dated April 79)
V7=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0early 79
3BSD=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 late 79
2BSD=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 April 80 (the 2.79 in the archives, by this= point curses was added to the tape)
4BSD=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= mid 80 (with curses)
2.8/4.1BSD mid 81 (first unified kernel+use= rland pdp-11 distro)

So curses library wasn't = on the 3bsd tape. It may have been on the 4bsd tape: all I can find is libt= ermcap on tuhs, but kirk's archive has a curses=C2=A0library data Octob= er 1980. The late 2BSD tapes (called 2.79BSD in our archive) is the earlies= t artifact I can find. It appears curses wasn't widely available until = midish 1980: the 2.79BSD tape has a July 17, 1980 date on the docs (being t= he earliest artifact I could find) and a Jan 1981 on the sources. The earli= est net.sources archive I can find starts in 1982. The latest 2BSD tape we = have in the archive from April 1979 does not have it.

<= div>A binary of rogue is on the 2.8BSD and 4.1BSD tapes. 2.8 has 'versi= on 3.4' but no sources and 4.1 has vers 4.22 in a 4.0 upgrade directory= , but no sources either:

-r--r--r-- =C2=A01 root = =C2=A0wheel =C2=A0 70364 May 21 =C2=A01981 ./2.8/usr/bin.v7/ucb/rogue
-r-xr-xr-x =C2=A01 root =C2=A0wheel =C2=A0 96356 Mar 13 =C2=A01982= ./4.1.snap/usr/games/rogue
-r-xr-xr-x =C2=A01 root =C2=A0whe= el =C2=A0 96356 Mar 13 =C2=A01982 ./4.1/4.0.upgrade/usr/games/rogue

Even in 4.2 it looks like most of rogue was distribut= ed as a binary .o file, and needed the updated net.sources version of libcu= rses, distributed with 4.2bsd.

So from a tracing t= he artifacts for libcurses, we get an interesting diversion, but nothing co= nclusive.

Warner
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